What are you for?

Poststructural Pub
1

Some C&F members dedicate considerable time posting about what they do not like about the United States. They criticize the US for causing and responding slowly to the 9/11 bombings; invading Iraq; not responding to the Indonesia tsunami quickly enough and with our fair share of donations based on GNP, gross dollars, per capita giving, etc.; for causing and not responding quickly enough to the recent Gulf Coast flooding; etc; etc. Some seem to take any advantage of any world event, regardless of what the US does or does not do, by spinning it to make the US look bad solely for the purpose making the US look bad.

I believe that those posters fairly would be labeled anti-American. I am sure that some would deny the anti-American label, saying that they are only interested in truth and honesty, that their criticism is only intended to make the US a better place, etc., etc. but, nevertheless, they quack like anti-American ducks. The rancor in their posts makes me think that those posters believe that there is something fundamentally wrong with the US. I find it very disheartening. And, of course, I’m directing my comments to jGilder, S1m0n, Blackwood, and their ideological soul mates who post here so loudly.

Being critical is easy. Stating and standing up for what you believe in is harder and riskier and takes more courage.

I would like to hear what you stand for instead of what you are against. Think positive.
Should the US be isolationist except for giving money to other countries?
What would you like for the US to do (besides get out of Iraq)?
What actions could the US take that would make you applaud?
What kind of a country would you like the US to be? What existing country comes closest to your ideal?
If you had the power, how would you change the US (besides getting rid of Bush)?
Do you find any aspect of the US, as it is now, admirable?

Please tell me what kind of a country you long for. Imagine and paint a picture.
What form of government and economy do you favor? Democracy? Republic? Capitalism? Socialism? Communism?
Would it have leaders?
Would your ideal country have no army and rely solely on negotiations for defense?
Do you believe that the country you imagine is achievable considering that imperfect people will populate it?
Are you able to paint that picture by stating what you believe in and are for instead of what you are against?

2

Christian Socialism, sort of like the Amish have in their communities. I would like to see the entire US and indeed the entire world live as one giant fellowship where everything is shared equally and there is peace.

Will I ever see that in my lifetime? I don’t know…but I’m optimistic. :slight_smile:

3

You analysis of what we believe and why we say what we say is so off base that it’s hardly worth even responding to. To denounce us as “anti-American” because we question what’s going on based on evidence in the public record contradicts the principals this country was founded on. As citizens it is our patriotic duty to raise these questions when it appears that our leaders have strayed from what’s fair and just. I can’t speak for Simon or Sven, but I consider myself to be patriotic in the true sense of the term. To denounce people who are being patriotic is… well, I suppose that might be considered anti-American actually.

4

Hi Dapple

I am not American, but here is my take on what would like to see in an ideal country.

  1. Health care available based on need not ability to pay.
  2. Education based on ability not ability to pay.
  3. Law based on solid principles and applied fairly to all.
  4. Tolerance for all faiths colours and creeds.
  5. Outward looking not inward.
  6. Innovation and creativity encouraged not stifled.
  7. Care for our environment placed higher on the agenda than currently.

I could go on but these are what seem to me to be the most important.

As to my political stance, well I think jGilder and s1m0n are right wing.

David

5

I live in and love my country - a nation where I am (so far) still free to disagree with my government, vote for my choice in any election (provided someone I find acceptable is even running), to raise my children according to my beliefs, not someone else’s, to worship in the church of my choice (or not at all) , where I am allowed to gather with others for discussion of any topic, where we are free to gather together in protest of any action we feel needs attention and redress, where it is still my perogative to read whatever I choose.

I intend to vote, work, and live for that to continue. That freedom demands that I also take my responsibility as a citizen to hold my country responsible for actions it takes in my name. I support it when I feel it is doing right and I call for change when I believe it to be doing wrong.

I will feel much better about it when every citizen’s life and health doesn’t depend on the level of their income, when elections are overseen by non-partisan organizations, and when we quit valuing the US dollar over lives.

I will have much more hope for it when we remember that the government is for all of us, and our elected officials are in service to us all, not just the party they belong to, and when we remember that religion is a personal choice, not one we can make for others.

If you think that makes me “anti-American”, you should probably be the one looking for a new nation of residence, because those are the very values this nation was formed on.

edited to remove bulk of quote

6

Dapple, dapple, dapple…
What a way to want to start a conversation…
The questions you raise a very broad and i could write a book on this so this board is not the place to get into that level of detail, but let me start by clarifying some comments you made:

criticize the US for causing and responding slowly to the 9/11 bombings

I never said that

not responding to the Indonesia tsunami quickly enough and with our fair share of donations based on GNP, gross dollars, per capita giving, etc.;

I never said that

I believe that those posters fairly would be labeled anti-American

What? Because I think the Iraq war was a mistake? Because I believe the response to the Hurricane was too slow? Heck Bush said the response was unacceptable. Is he anti- American? Am I anti-American because i am raising questions about the nature of some very impactful policy questions? You need to clarify that comment: What do you intent to say by “Anti-American”? What statement on my part is causing you to label me Anti-American? Please be specific.

Since you asked a bunch of questions let me state my basic philosophy:

  1. I’m not anti-American, In fact I will be sworn in as a citizen on September 17. Why? Because I love this country, it holds the greatest promise in the world, it has so much potential. My Dad was saved by Americans as a boy, America has a history of liberation and freedom.
    Clear?
  2. With absolute power comes absolute responsibility. The US has the power to help and it has the power to destroy. The Cold War was a terrible time, I grew up right in the middle of it with my country of birth divided. The US kept the world going. During that time some very unfortuante decisions were made maybe with good intentions but with enough pragmatic cynicism that caused the US to ally themselves and also become dependent on some very narly characters. Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, the Saudis ironically just to name a few. With the Cold War over the US is standing alone in the world as the supreme super power in a world that is increasingly interconnected economically. How is the US using its potential now?
  3. I believe that without critical debate a society looses its soul. I’m neither a Democrat nor a Republican since I am very dismayed by the low level of political debate. People seem to be in either in one corner or the other without any true debate on the issues. The shouting propagandists on both sides are claiming to be righteous and the debate is lost, the issues not addressed. People with opposing views are labeled instead of their points being addressed. You labeled me Anti-American and cited supposed positions I, Jack, and Simon took, yet you have never discussed any of the points we raised. If you disagree with some of the points raised then please state your opinion and hopefully bring some supporting facts into the discussion. We would be happy to discuss them with you, but please don’t blanket label us without any previous discussion nor any facts to support your position.
  4. Finally some parting thoughts.
    The US incarcerates more people than any country in the world, more than even Communist China. Why? Is this the best this country can do? Could it possibly be related to some of the lowest high school education results in the industrialized world? Could it possibly be related to the highest poverty rates in the industrialized world? Are those issues beyond debate or does it make me anti-American from raising them? The point is this country can do better than this and we should try to make it better. But if you listen just to the propaganda you will never get a broad enough picture to think critically.

Don’t mistake criticism for anti-patriotism, if you take the time to understand the people you are labeling you will find them to be highly intelligent, very well read and educated who care greatly about this country and are deeply concerned about America potentially losing its ways.

7

We have all of it.

8

I would like a government in which church and state are separated. I know the point of your thread is to be positive, dapple, and I do not like to be disagreeable. But it is difficult when someone advocates a form of government in my country which would exclude me. I do feel I am standing up for what I believe in. I’m not going to get into a debate about this, no point in disrupting the thread. Just my opinion.

9

10

I would like to see a country that was more communitarian, socialistic, if you will. Everyone doing their own thing is not feasible in the long term. Even though that rugged indivualism has worked in the past, for the future, with more limited resources and increasing populations and costs, we need to get our heads together and find a better solution to our coporate dillema.

11

Where do we have healthcare based on need and not income?
Where do we have education based on ability not ability to pay?
Although there is some tolerance, it is not for all faiths, colors or creeds, and certainly not universal across the nation, and unfortunately, not intrinsic in our governmental representation or legal system.
We are outward looking, but more for financial profit than is healthy for people or the environment.
Innovation and creativity are encouraged.. to a point… as long as they don’t threaten the status quo of high powered individuals or big business.
We still care more for the corporate bottom line than the environment.

I hope to see all of those improve, but they are far from optimal right now.

12

Perhaps this is what you had in mind?

I’m for those big SUV’s running liberal driven fuel efficient cars off the road.

I’m for invading Islamic countries, killing their leaders and converting them to Christianity.

I’m for “kicking their ass and taking their gas.”

I’m for nuking the moon.

I’m for paving the whales.

I’m all for the GOP stamping out liberalism in the name of the flag.

I’m for keeping my gun pointed in a safe direction such as at a hippie or communist.

I’m for four more years of tax cuts and dead terrorists.

I’m for nuetering my cat and making him a liberal.

I’m for F-ing the French.

I’m for punching a liberal whining about tolerance to see if he tolerates it.

I’m for a smiley-faced world with no liberals.

None of these are actually my views. I was raised to believe that America stood for something far more noble than being the world’s bully. But that is exactly what those right-wing phrases above remind me of: “This is my block,” “Move it or lose it,” “Get out of my way or I’ll knock your head off,” “Pay up or I’ll clean your clock,” “You’re either with me or against me.” To me, that is being unAmerican.

If you are so inclined, you can purchase a t-shirt with any of those slogans at this website: http://www.thoseshirts.com/tshirts.html

As for me, I think I’ll just hang on to my money.

Will O’Ban

13

Being critical of your own faults is the toughest thing in the world.

Being ignorant of them is the easiest.

Mukade

14

Very wise.

Will O’Ban

15

I’m in favor of evangelicals getting out of politics.

I’m evangelical, and liberal. Jesus is not a conservative political agenda.


Although, I do think, in a way, Conservative America is representative of the founding fathers. People got pissed because they didn’t want to pay their taxes, so they had a revolution in the name of God and human rights. Today, we don’t want to be careful with our gas consumption, so we take over a country with huge oil reserves in the name of God and human rights.

I think I am, more or less, anti-politician though, but on an international level. It’s just a power game for all of them.

What am I in favor of? Jesus. That about sums it up.

16

As a principle, yes, but incorrectly applied. I do love rhetoric. You see, it is a very good way to win an argument by making a wise statment that analgious to your situation, but cannot be directly applied when taken out of the abstract context and placed into the debate scenario. Let’s call bullshit bullshit here.

It is not difficult at all to critisize authority figures, or external problems (I should know, I’ve done my share). Being ignorant of their faults quite easy as well (which I’ve probably also done). Being Critical of your personal being is more difficult.

Of course, standing up for what you actually believe in is the most difficult of all of the above things to do. I’ve done this, but not as often as I aught. It’s really rather shameful.

Mukade’s comment, while true in principle, really has nothing to do with dapple’s priciple, which is eaqually true.

Of course, both parties are just spewing squishy ideas to gain credibility for agendas that are not related to the heart of the issue.

Some people like the way America works and some people don’t. I don’t, but it probably has nothing to do with either of the above issues, but rather is a result of my personal experiences and biases. Let’s not fool ourselves into thinking we made up our own minds. That’s stupid (with the exception that some opinions result more directly from selfishness, in which case we can take full credit for them).

Now that I’ve gotten that out of my system, I thought of one more thing to make America a better place:

If people would stop whining about it, and start trying to make a difference.

I’m done with all you political geniuses now, back to building flutes.

17

So Dapple - When did you stop beating your wife? You’re asking your question in a very belligerent manner but I detect a note of sincerity beneath the blind nationalistic fervor.

A few reactions.

I am a proud and patriotic American. Most of your questions dealt with foreign policy. Here’s what I want us to do.

The US should participate in the world community as a wise partner and leader. I have no desire to rehash the run-up to Iraq, but I think our approach to Iraq prior to 9/11 is informative. Iraq was a country run by a brutal, sadistic dictator. His aggressive instincts had been blunted by the world community, lead by the US, through the UN, during and after Gulf War I. Iraq was isolated from the international community. It was regularly inspected for WMD and its WMD capacity was dismantled. Saddam ran a secular state and the Islamic fundamentalist terror community ignored him. While Saddam surely would have liked to export terror, he couldn’t and didn’t. As far as the rest of the world was concerned Iraq was isolated and alone. The US, working in partnership with the world community was successful. Good model. The current administration hated it. World community intervention to protect the Iraqi people from Saddam would have had my support.

Here are some other recent changes is the US that I think have been harmful.

Religious, political and cultural fundamentalism is a self-defeating simplistic answer to the complexities of the modern world. Many Americans are embracing it because it offers black and white answers to difficult questions. I’m perfectly comfortable with individuals who choose these belief systems to guide they’re personal lives. I don’t think they translate well into public policy. Not here and not in Iran or Iraq. As we people and a country, we need to cope better with the complexity of modern life and the real world.

US capitalism has moved toward a dramatic change in recent years. 80 yrs ago, the average CEO made 20X to 30X the income of the average worker. (These #s are examples. I’m not taking the time to look them up so forgive if they’re off a bit. The underlying point is accurate.) That was the norm from the industrial revolution to 20 yrs ago. Now the average CEO is making something like 2000X the income of the average worker. The “real” income (inflation adjusted earning power) has been declining since the 1980s. Bad trends.

Time to stop. The US really is the beacon of freedom for the world. Since WW2 through a combination of creativity, kindness, hard work and luck the US has done more to improve the quality of life of all on the planet. It continues to do so. When I criticize, I’m directing my comments toward specific people, not the country.

Are we best country on earth? I don’t have any idea. I know I wouldn’t want to be anywhere else. Frankly the whole concept of “best country on earth” strikes me as immature and divisive. Better to ask if we can do the most good, feed to most hungry, bring literacy to the most people, be the best stewards of the planet’s environment, foster peace and justice throughout the world and be a better people by helping others even more. For the most part, the US does these things very well, but there is always room for improvement.

18

Go WillO! Go WillO!

I well remember the bumper sticker from the 70s - “America - Love it, or leave it!” I think “Love it and keep it honest!”, or “Love it or Change it!” is more appropriate.

19

I agree that the slogan “America - Love it, or leave it!” is anti-American. One great aspect of the US governmental system and laws is that they are designed and meant to be changed by citizens through peaceful means.

The intent of my post was not to say that anyone’s opinion is wrong (although I do disagree with many political opinions posted here and, regrettably, my disagreement apparently came across in my first post above and offended some members). On this board where its members post volumes about what they are against, I simply am asking for a different perspective, a short post: What would you support? What are you in favor of? What do you believe in?

20

Here is my view as requested. I am not planning on debating any of these points publically, just sharing a personal perspective.

I am in favour of a country with a top priority of taking care of all of its citizens, regardless of where they live, how they live, how they were raised, their background or general health, and the choices they make. Ultimately, even when they make bad choices, they should be taken care of, though I don’t foresee that happening anytime soon.

I would like to see my country understand that it is part of the world at large, for better or for worse, and that it is the responsibility of each country to prepare for the future. “The future” includes next year, next decade, next century and beyond. It involves investing in the health and education of its current and future citizens. It involves careful and conscientious management of natural resources and of waste products. Changing to such a status may result in short term discomfort or hard adjustments and a change of lifestyle on both personal and national scales. I believe it is worth the end result. I would like to see my country take a long-term view. I would also like to see it focus on this view at home before it tries to impact on other countries. (An exception to this might be if another country’s government specifically asked for assistance.)

I would like to see more than two real choices for US President each election year. I would like to change the voting system so that voters who live in an area with a different dominant political view do not feel that their vote is “wasted”. I would like to see a political ‘race’ where people don’t vote for someone just to deprive the other candidate of their vote, but truly believe that that candidate is the right one to lead.

I would like to see an end to the growing belief that if someone speaks out against the direction of America or against its leaders, then that person is “Anti American”. The people who speak out are the ones who are worried about the country and want to see it do well. The people who speak out but refuse to listen to anyone else’s view (not necessarily agree, just listen) are of more concern to me.

I would like to increase the global understanding of the average American. It’s a small planet, but it sure doesn’t seem that way from inside the shopping malls and movie theatres in Anytown, USA. I would like to see the government provide a passport for every American, as free of charge as possible. Foreign travel is expensive enough without discouraging people at the first step. I would like to see the American educational system encourage a ‘gap year’ system like many other countries, so that an 18-year old high school graduate has some time to visit other countries and learn more about life, the world and themselves before having to commit themselves to a major or to a full time job.

I would like to see more industry and company leaders who are not giving themselves six figure salaries and bonuses while millions of people are struggling on minimum wage or less. I think whatever company kicks off a philosophy of “yeah, I’m the head of XYZ Corp but I make a reasonable wage - and so do all of my employees” will find customers and/or clients flocking to their doors. If they can manage to not give (only) themselves huge bonuses at that point, then I will be impressed.

No country is perfect. No citizens are perfect. I recognise that. I’m not asking for perfection.

What I am asking for is a country that we can be proud of. I want to be able to say “I’m an American” without feeling like I should add a apology afterward.