Irish Grip

Okay, lads, seems like it’s been awhile since we had a good argument, …errr…, discussion, about holding the flute. One of my students made a brief video of me playing a jig, in order to be able to examine my grip a bit more closely (amazing how far you’ll let someone into your personal space if they’ve got a cool camera). After seeing it, I thought, “hey, what a great way to re-start the argument, …errr…, discussion about flute holds!”

Here it is: [url] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76aKx23qd58

Opening salvo: I don’t think my left hand looks at all crampey and awkward! Pre-emptive defense: no, I don’t always look so far down; just when I’m being stalked by the papparazzi. Cheers,

Rob

First, let me say that you played a fine piece of music, no matter how you did so. Congratulations to you!

However, I see that your LH grip has your wrist laterally rotated outwards. On a D flute, this is typical of my own experience when using anything like a “piper’s” LH grip. So, for a D flute, and for flutes of a similar size, I suggest holding the flute against the base of the LH index finger, aka a “classical” grip, which allows the wrist to remain straight.

Basically, straight wrists relieve stress.

Hi,
Nice playing!
Well, it works for you, so that is all that matters. :smiley:
I tried to hold the flute like you are, and I just couldn’t do it, my hand doesn’t bend that way! Is this kind of a modified pipers grip?
If you had a Bb key, it might be hard to hit, but I guess that is why the pipers grip players like the double touch on the Bb key.

I suggest holding the flute against the base of the LH index finger…

Whatever have you done or said on this forum that would make Rob, an excellent player, wish to take your advice? His playing sounds great. Why should he change his grip? He obviously doesn’t have a problem holding it the way he does.
Harry B, who we know is a great fluter, says there are hundreds of ways of holding the flute.
Rob’s room is messy, too. Perhaps he should clean it up?

He has a nice Persian carpet though… :smiley:

Lovely playing, Rob. Glad you posted just for that!

On the “hold” front, I was rather puzzled because I couldn’t really see how you are getting any inward pressure from the L hand to support the flute. Your fingers are clearly nicely relaxed, so it isn’t that you are pinching it between thumb and forefinger, and you aren’t doing the classic bansuri type “piper’s” thing with the thumb way up tube on the outer side pushing in. Your R hand is virtually “classical” and doesn’t really come into the discussion. You aren’t holding the flute “up” with a R hand “death grip”.

I tried to emulate your hold out of interest and curiosity and I can sort of do it, though my thumb was initially inclined to collapse against the side of my forefinger for support. It seems to me that you are balancing the weight of the flute on the tip of your thumb and that there is no inward pressure to speak of. I can actually play toleraby freely this way at short acquaintance, though for me it involves a certain amount of tension in the L arm and thumb (but not the playing fingers) because there is no inward pressure to counter-act chin and R thumb, and whilst not insecure, I find it less secure than my customary hold - partly familiarity, no doubt. Certainly it would not be possible to operate a thumb key with any facility using this hold. Apart from those two points, I see no real disadvantages or limitations to it or reason to criticise it. As others have said, it works well for you.

I would opine that it is not any kind of “piper’s hold” at all, and to describe it so would be misleading. It seems to me that it is exactly how I hold a whistle, simply turned up to transverse position; so, if we are to give it a distinct label, can I suggest “whistle hold turned sideways” would be accurate and help folk to visualise what you actually do?

I think your posting the video is really useful (as well as a musical treat) because it clarifies what now appear to be misunderstandings in previous discussions. I think I and many others would not have visualised correctly what you actually do if you called it a version of “piper’s hold”. You certainly are not stopping the holes below the top joint of your fingers, which is my understanding of the essence of “piper’s”, regardless of what the other parts of the hands do or how the instrument is supported.

Aren’t the “lasses” allowed to join the row (if there is one this time)? :smiling_imp:

Does your thumb joint ache and get tired? I suppose it depends on how lightly you seal the holes above? I started holding flute something like that but my thumb was just too uncomfortable by the end of a set.

The heck with your hand position, Rob. Whatever. I’m much more concerned about that drum you have lurking behind you in the video. You have both your hands occupied, and you’ve got your back to it. You’ve left yourself incredibly vulnerable to having some dreadlocked wack-job just waltz right in and start beating away on it, you know? Getting cured from carpal tunnel syndrome is a breeze compared to getting a wacko drummer out of your house once an infestation begins. Soon their friends will arrive to join in on the jam. On the plus side, though, they may let you have a hit on the bong every so often if you keep the Dorito bowl full for them…

Fantastic playing! To me, your grip looks entirely natural, as it is almost identical to the grip that I use - except that your hands and fingers look extremely relaxed. My hands and arms do tense up a fair bit by the third tune in a set, but that has much more to do with being at an early stage in learning the flute (just over a year) - I expect that beginners using the rockstro grip also tense up until they learn to relax. My reasons for using that grip stem from reduced range of motion in my left arm due to an elbow dislocation when I was a kid - the rockstro grip is simply too uncomfortable for me.

I also like your neologism “Irish grip” to distinguish this hold from both the rockstro grip and from the true piper’s grip.

Now if I could only get myself to SOUND like that…

Pete

Who made your flute?

Boyd

Great playing. I know that one as the ‘Kilmovee jig’.

Regarding hand position I don’t give a beep to be honest. As soon as one feels comfortable with it, it’s great…I once saw a video somewhere (guess it was on tg4.ie) which featured a flute player who held the flute in a way that looked so terribly uncomfortable that I asked myself, “why the heck is he doing that?”. But the music that came from him and his flute was awesome, so who cares about his grip…

Ditto all that. Your hands seem relaxed and comfortable and you sound great. I hold the flute differently, but I’d never presume to tell you to change how you hold it.

Great stuff!

That looks like the way Turlach Boylan holds the flute. I tried it during my last lesson and found it amazingly difficult…Turlach said it would take some time to get used to that grip if I wanted to switch to it.

Nice playing.

Eric

I could see the wires holding your flute up. :laughing:

After a bit I could do that. I can see the advantage. Your B finger is totally free.

Thanks, lads. Note that I’m using “lads” in the genderless, totally inclusive, modern Irish sense of the word. Groups of ladies are frequently overheard to say, “right, lads, what are we at?” As well as other things that might shock the unwary…

I’m afraid I can’t take any credit for the drum, the rug, or the cut of that room; like an old-timey country doctor, I make housecalls. There’s a few other interesting things in the background, including one major feature that nobody has mentioned so far, surprisingly.

Just to address a few of the points raised, starting with the first: I don’t agree with the “laterally rotated outwards” thing at all. Which way is out? I’m super-sensitive to any kind of strain, having had a pretty severe problem on another instrument many years ago, and I can assure any doubters that my left wrist is totally strain-free.

My thumb doesn’t get particularly tired, since it doesn’t hold the flute up. It’s really a pivot point. My RH little finger is pushing the flute away from me, and the flute pivots on the thumb and is pressed onto my face, for want of a more elegant way to say that. When I do it right, it feels like the weight of the flute magically disappears. The RH thumb isn’t doing much, either. I suppose the weight is shared around among all the contact points.

One of the main reasons I’m trying to make a distinction between holds of the “piper’s” type and what I’m trying to call holds of the “Irish” type is that LH thumb. In the piper’s holds, in addition to the use of the second joints to cover the holes, the thumb is generally under the flute and supporting its weight, in a position similar to where the thumb rests on a chanter to cover the back D (and Jem, I’d say a flipped-over whistle hold would put the thumb on the underside as well). Accepting that there are most certainly gradations/grey areas betwixt and between, generally speaking that players that I would identify as using the Irish hold have that LH thumb somewhere out on the side of the flute, where it serves more as a pivot than a support. The use of the first finger joints to cover the holes just completes the distinction.

John C. is correct that the normal Bb key is useless to someone using this type of hold. That’s why I’m always banging on about the RH touch, an elegant side-step to the problem. Another issue is where to put the RH little finger on an 8-key. My solution is a little plug of cork, shaped and affixed to the footjoint between the Eb key and the C#/C touches - the patented Rob-Rest ™!!! I make them for my keyless flutes as well, though there isn’t one on the flute in the video (an Olwell Pratten). I’ll post a pic or two at some stage. Thanks again for the kind words. Cheers,

Rob

Just curious but when I look at the video again, it looks to me as if the thumb is pretty much under the flute, bent and pointing backwards a bit - like it would be with ‘pipers grip’ where the middle part of some of the fingers are used. I guess the reason it isn’t uncomfortable for you is that you must be really relaxed and light of touch above … which relaxation is also part of the overall sound too.
I always liked the relative ease and control with which I could use my ‘B’ finger when I had that type of grip but suffered in other ways. Must try it again now and as everyone else has commented, what difference does it make at the end of the day once the music is good.

Well, surely that would be the beer — it’s a major interest of mine, anyway.

Great playing. The grip’s not too far off from what I’m doing. I do have some issues with cramping in the base of the left thumb, but I think that stems from a tendonitis condition that predates my flute-playing. (I call it my ‘Freddie Green’ period). Still, I’m making a conscious effort to loosen my grip, and that’s helping.

Well-played, Rob. Great thread!

Yeah, good that you mentioned that. The more I think about it, the more it seems like the best way to describe where my thumb is would be somewhere between under the flute and on the side. There are players whose thumbs are way up on the side of the instrument, at 9:00, if you will. If 6:00 is where a player whose thumb was right the way under the flute would be to support 100% of the flute’s weight, like a shelf, then my thumb is at about 8:00. Call it 7:45.

Rob

PS: I was responding to Flutered’s comment there, CT, in case this looks like a non sequitur. The beer is an interest of mine as well! Still, it’s not the feature I’m hoping someone will spot…

not the ::shudder:: music stand?

nice trick to get us to watch it again :wink: