So I recently, just for fun decided to try and hold my flute touching my shoulder, kinda tucked in as you can see Conal O’ Grada doing in the pic on
his thread/ The first thing I noticed is that my sound had that really honking, raspy, deep, powerful sound that has pretty much always eluded me. The second thing I noticed was that I had an awful cramp in my neck. I just couldn’t get comfortable with the position. I guess my questions are as follows: was I actually playing with a better tone, or was I just hearing the flute better because it was closer to my ear? And secondly, how do I position myself so that this position is more comfortable?
I started to play shoulder a while back and there was a significant improvement in tone and tone consistency. There’s no question that the shoulder stabilizes the angle between the jetstream and the embouchure hole. And because much of the weight is taken off the LH, the A and B rolls improve as well. Indeed the added stability allows me to cover the tone holes practically with a feathertouch.
The trick to avoiding neck cramps is to stop tensing up and avoid playing for long stretches (take rests between tune sets).
Yes it’s a crutch and it’s inelegant but it works extremely well.
If it were me I would be careful. I’m in this for the long
haul and I’m concerned about the body breaking down.
Especially if it hurts. Not that it must lead to grief,
but I’m nervous about spending lots of time in
extreme positions, e.g. the neck twisted. I believe
it increases the possibility of injury.
Whatever one accomplishes this
way can, by honest toil, be accomplished
in a standard position too.
By the way I continue to work to reduce somewhat the bend
in my left wrist–for similar reasons. I just keep it in mind
and adjust the finger positions so that the wrist is somewhat
straighter.
A good deal of playing, if one is serious and at it for long
periods, is learning how to play safe, IMO.
I agree with Jim. Those players probably won’t be able to keep up that awkward playing position for very long. I hurt just looking at players who hold the flute that way. A lot of them will most likely need neck surgery, etc. somewhere down the line.
Didn’t Jean-Michel Veillon have neck problems for this reason? Seems like I heard something along those lines…
The Rockstro grip provides support for the flute, and allows freedom of movement for the first 2 fingers of the upper hand, and allows one to have the upper hand thumb not touching the flute, which prevents death grip. It’s odd to get used to pushing out with the lower thumb, and to have the base of the upper hand first finger acting as a fulcrum, but once learned, you have the benefits of the flute on shoulder position without the potential neck and shoulder issues.
To forestall Rob, this isn’t an argument against other grips, it’s an argument that one can obtain the advantages of the shoulder prop method another way.
Just learning the flute, but I have lots of years under my belt in other music styles/instruments, as well as analyzing ergonomics in other activities.
To my mind, (correct me if I am wrong please!) the main thing that is going to determine the sound of the flute is the specific relationship of one’s embouchure and breath support with the embouchure of the flute. In theory, one could stand on their head, and as long as there is a good air stream, directed properly through a good embouchure into the flute, then it is going to sound “good”.
So, if one finds that the shoulder rest is making the flute sound “better” then it must also be having some effect on the embouchure and/or breath support.
The trick then would be to find these differences, and then apply them to a less contorted hold.
Of course, keep in mind that this is coming from someone who’s flute sound varies from the time of day, phase of the moon, and the fluctuations of the US dollar to the Nigerian Naira…
Am i imagining things, or is this method more common with left handed flute players? I’ve met three left handed flute players over the past several months, and they all rest the end of the flute on their shoulder.
Dunno 'bout lefties, and I too have no wish to re-open Rob’s sore points or mine (! !), but I agree with Clinton. There really shoudn’t be any problem with L hand (for R handers) mobilty/dexterity in Rockstro type hold if you do it properly. Regarding the actual feasibility of the shoulder-support thing, and ignoring for now its desirability, it depends, as does the funtioning of any style of grip, upon the individual’s physique. Personally, I can’t do it at all unless in some kind of slumped-in-an-armchair type posture which would in any case be unconducive to good playing. I think it probably requires a fairly short neck to be viable. I can’t really get my shoulder up enough and/or my chin down and round to the left enough to do it at all when sitting or standing up straight. For me it is painful even to try, let alone sustain, but I do accept it seems to work for some folk.
Apart from whether one can actually do it and not be in discomfort doing so, there is also the question of how posture affects breath control and air-column support. I think the consensus would be that the severe twist of the neck down and to the side seen in players using this method restricts the openness of the throat and the directness of support from the abdomen and is not the optimum way of helping your body to achieve those desirable things. Constriction and tension are generally to be avoided.
body breaking down
extreme positions
neck twisted
hurt
neck surgery
severe twist
Are any of these characterizations based on fact or is this psychological projection? Yes this position is riskier, since it’s not neutral (but then neither is the standard flute posture). No, we’re not all in neck braces and receiving disability benefits.
One of my very accomplished flute playing friends who used the shoulder position nearly ended up requiring potentially dangerous major neck surgery as a result of the strain it put on his spine and almost had to give up the instrument. I’d certainly never play this way or recommend it to anyone.
Its quite possible to achieve an absolutely stable platform for the instrument using a more classical hold (not necessarily restricted to the Rockstro, I play flat fingered) without resorting to these sorts of contortions.
Oh dear, another crusade to ban the on the shoulder style.
You better warn that Catherine McAvoy and Conal O’ Grada , what clumsy buggers they really must be!
I can play both ways, if i just lift my shoulder 1 inch, i am playing on the shoulder. It’s not a big difference ergonomic wise, but it gives me some extra ballance, were my fingers had to do the balancing otherwise. Another thing i noticed is that while plaing on the shoulder is that the tip of my tongue is touching my lower teeth, wich gives me a lot of confidence while playing.
A curious question about more or less standard
grip. Is your neck turned and if so, how much?
Let’s talk about D flutes, if we may.
I find that I am definitely turning my head to
the left. If I try to face squarely forward
my right shoulder is thrown back a good deal,
uncomfortably so, though I can probably
work to make it more comfortable (stretching).
Jim, I very much doubt anyone using a classical style hold has their face squarely to the front. It certainly isn’t part of the standard instructions to do so! Turned slightly to the left is normal, square to front is not, and except for briefly passing through such a position in looking around whilst playing, I don’t do so, nor can I think of having seen anyone else do so.
As for the on-shoulder thing, you’ll note I have carefully not criticised it per se. I don’t know whether Conal O’Grada or Mike McGoldrick suffer any strains from doing it, though my recollection of seeing Conal play is that he doesn’t actually keep it clamped there full time. It certainly doesn’t seem detrimental to their playing! However, I’m with Michael Eskin in saying I would never encourage anyone to use it and would positively discourage anyone seeking my advice or tuition from doing it. As I said before, I actually cannot do it myself, save as a quick experiment.
I think it is possible to demonstrate to a person whom one has physically present to give instructions to that their windway and therefore their air-column and breath support are more open and easier to control with a less side-turned and more level posture of the head, and that that is more conducive to good tone; but clearly, the aforementioned stellar players who use it have no problems with tone production and support, even if they may have other problems. Like many such things, the fact that some virtuosi “break the rules” and get away with it or even benefit from so doing does not necessarily make it a good thing to copy or mean that we can all do so well with their method. They may be doing well in spite of what they are doing, and if one can show a less advanced player seeking guidance how they personally can optimise what they are doing by more “normal” techniques, surely that is preferable?
Also remember, it’s not the positioning of the skeletal structure that causes the damage, it’s the muscle tension required to maintain that positioning. If you can play with the flute on your shoulder and be relaxed, more power to you. I can’t.
I hope that the pros that use the shoulder style continue to have good health and stay injury free… That some extremely accomplished players use this hold doesn’t mean it should be emulated or encouraged.
I’m of the opinion, that whatever the instrument, it should be supported in a way that allows for maximum relaxation and comfort. Particularly if you want to repeatedly get through many hours of playing without incurring some sort of stress injury over time.
Here’s how I hold a flute, what works for me may or may not work for you:
While seated, I turn my body slightly to the right, hold the flute in a standard classical sort of body position adapted for keyless flute, with the weight of the flute primarily supported by the thumbs under the instrument (I play flat fingered on both hands) and balanced by minimal pressure by the right pinky. I generally have a very slight bend forward at the waist. The flute goes where the hands would naturally take it, with some minor head motion down and rotation very slightly to the left to bring the whole thing together. Shoulders are relaxed. There is no strain, no effort, no pain, no gripping the flute, no pressing of the instrument to the face, its a stable platform with the arms, fingers, and body relaxed. The flute goes where the hands naturally would be when held up in a relaxed way. I have a three piece body flute so I’ll rotate the sections as required to allow my wrists to have a continuous relaxed curve from my forearm.
It looks something like this (had to adapt a bit since I had to get the whole flute into the frame):
!), but I agree with Clinton. There really shoudn’t be any problem with L hand (for R handers) mobilty/dexterity in Rockstro type hold if you do it properly. Regarding the actual feasibility of the shoulder-support thing, and ignoring for now its desirability, it depends, as does the funtioning of any style of grip, upon the individual’s physique. Personally, I can’t do it at all unless in some kind of slumped-in-an-armchair type posture which would in any case be unconducive to good playing. I think it probably requires a fairly short neck to be viable. I can’t really get my shoulder up enough and/or my chin down and round to the left enough to do it at all when sitting or standing up straight. For me it is painful even to try, let alone sustain, but I do accept it seems to work for some folk.