Ornamentation - where did it come from and how...
Just out of curiosity, where did ornamention come from, and why.
Does anybody have a music history background. I don't want to know how to do it,theres more than enough explanations on all the boards.
Just curious of its history and development.
Any thoughts.
MarkB
_________________
"Taw May Muh Hee" and "Neel Shay Na Law"
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: MarkB on 2003-02-12 17:40 ]</font>
Does anybody have a music history background. I don't want to know how to do it,theres more than enough explanations on all the boards.
Just curious of its history and development.
Any thoughts.
MarkB
_________________
"Taw May Muh Hee" and "Neel Shay Na Law"
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: MarkB on 2003-02-12 17:40 ]</font>
- Redwolf
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My personal theory is that it arose from someone having trouble keeping hold of his whistle (maybe after one too many Guinnesses?). "Whoops! Wrong note! I'll just slap the right finger down quick and hope no one notices. Hey, that sounded cool! I think I'll call it a 'cut'!"
Just foolin' (well, only just!). I believe a lot of it comes from piping, and perhaps from fiddling as well.
It's also possible some of it comes from vocal music. If you listen to traditional Irish "sean nos" singing, it makes great use of very similar ornamentation techniques, which is used to add expressiveness to the performance in much the same way a classical singer might use dymamics (such as crescendo/decrescendo).
Redwolf
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Redwolf on 2003-02-12 17:44 ]</font>
Just foolin' (well, only just!). I believe a lot of it comes from piping, and perhaps from fiddling as well.
It's also possible some of it comes from vocal music. If you listen to traditional Irish "sean nos" singing, it makes great use of very similar ornamentation techniques, which is used to add expressiveness to the performance in much the same way a classical singer might use dymamics (such as crescendo/decrescendo).
Redwolf
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Redwolf on 2003-02-12 17:44 ]</font>
- Flamman
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I don't know, but I'd hazard a guess. I'm a drummer in a pipe band, and the pipers tell me that playing the old wheeze and queeze is like playing a piano with only white keys. Consequently, they play a lot of ornamentation to compensate for the instrument's limited nature. A six-hole fipple flute would also seem to meet that description.
- Ridseard
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Good question for the Irish Trad Music Forum http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewforum.php?forum=8&1717
- HDSarah
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Try this:
http://www.cliffmoses.com/ornaments/ornament.html
It's a hammered dulcimer site, but the discussion of ornaments gives some history related to fiddle, pipes, etc.
Sarah
http://www.cliffmoses.com/ornaments/ornament.html
It's a hammered dulcimer site, but the discussion of ornaments gives some history related to fiddle, pipes, etc.
Sarah
- chas
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I think Redwolf is onto something with the Guinness remark. Ornamentation is not peculiar to traditional music (I believe Bach is credited with standardizing the notation for grace notes). There's a saying among orchestral musicians that vibrato (in the strings) can cover a wealth of small mistakes. The same may be said for ornamentation in traditional music, since the fiddlers don't play with much vibrato. Some of my best rolls are accidental.
And her remark about sean nos singing, where ornamentation takes the place of harmony, also has some bearing.
And her remark about sean nos singing, where ornamentation takes the place of harmony, also has some bearing.
Charlie
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"Our work puts heavy metal where it belongs -- as a music genre and not a pollutant in drinking water." -- Prof Ali Miserez.
- peeplj
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Classical music of all kinds is rife and thick with ornamentation, it just happens to be different ornamentation than is used in Irish music.
Classical ornaments tend to be more melodic and less rhythmic; the opposite is of course true in Irish trad.
There are trills, mordents, inverted mordents, tremolos, flattements, gruppetto (turns), graces, subdivisions, and God-knows what-all else.
You can spend a lifetime in the study of classical ornamentation--in fact, some have.
Best,
--James
http://www.flutesite.com
Classical ornaments tend to be more melodic and less rhythmic; the opposite is of course true in Irish trad.
There are trills, mordents, inverted mordents, tremolos, flattements, gruppetto (turns), graces, subdivisions, and God-knows what-all else.
You can spend a lifetime in the study of classical ornamentation--in fact, some have.
Best,
--James
http://www.flutesite.com
- Soineanta
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I've been wondering about this, and might as well not start a whole new thread.. but what exactly is "sean nos" music? I've heard the term alot, but don't know what it means. (Obviously, or else I wouldn't be asking...)If you listen to traditional Irish "sean nos" singing, it makes great use of very similar ornamentation techniques..
- LimuHead
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My theory is that musical ornaments originated at the same time musical awareness did. There has always been a spirit of inventiveness that naturally comes with facility on an instrument. The 'plain stuff' gets boring, and the urge to spice it up would come quite naturally.
Ornaments came from musicians.....
Just a theory.
Ornaments came from musicians.....
Just a theory.
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- spittin_in_the_wind
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On 2003-02-12 17:41, Redwolf wrote:
My personal theory is that it arose from someone having trouble keeping hold of his whistle (maybe after one too many Guinnesses?). "Whoops! Wrong note! I'll just slap the right finger down quick and hope no one notices. Hey, that sounded cool! I think I'll call it a 'cut'!"
Just foolin' (well, only just!). I believe a lot of it comes from piping, and perhaps from fiddling as well.
Redwolf
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Redwolf on 2003-02-12 17:44 ]</font>
Some of my best ornamentation comes when I'm about to drop that thing, lol!
Robin
- Daniel_Bingamon
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