Ornamentation - where did it come from and how...

MarkB · Post by **MarkB** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 4:39 pm

Just out of curiosity, where did ornamention come from, and why.

Does anybody have a music history background. I don't want to know how to do it,theres more than enough explanations on all the boards.

Just curious of its history and development.

Any thoughts.

MarkB

_________________
"Taw May Muh Hee" and "Neel Shay Na Law"

[ This Message was edited by: MarkB on 2003-02-12 17:40 ]

Redwolf · Post by **Redwolf** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 4:41 pm

My personal theory is that it arose from someone having trouble keeping hold of his whistle (maybe after one too many Guinnesses?). "Whoops! Wrong note! I'll just slap the right finger down quick and hope no one notices. Hey, that sounded cool! I think I'll call it a 'cut'!"

Just foolin' (well, only just!). I believe a lot of it comes from piping, and perhaps from fiddling as well.

It's also possible some of it comes from vocal music. If you listen to traditional Irish "sean nos" singing, it makes great use of very similar ornamentation techniques, which is used to add expressiveness to the performance in much the same way a classical singer might use dymamics (such as crescendo/decrescendo).

Redwolf

[ This Message was edited by: Redwolf on 2003-02-12 17:44 ]

Flamman · Post by **Flamman** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 4:44 pm

I don't know, but I'd hazard a guess. I'm a drummer in a pipe band, and the pipers tell me that playing the old wheeze and queeze is like playing a piano with only white keys. Consequently, they play a lot of ornamentation to compensate for the instrument's limited nature. A six-hole fipple flute would also seem to meet that description.

MarkB · Post by **MarkB** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 4:45 pm

I have also thought of the wrong note theory and quickly change fingers or whatever and ended up doing a roll of some kind.

MarkB

Ridseard · Post by **Ridseard** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 4:45 pm

Good question for the Irish Trad Music Forum http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewforum.php?forum=8&1717

HDSarah · Post by **HDSarah** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 4:46 pm

Try this:
http://www.cliffmoses.com/ornaments/ornament.html

It's a hammered dulcimer site, but the discussion of ornaments gives some history related to fiddle, pipes, etc.

Sarah

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 5:05 pm

Ornamentation is the only way
bagpipes can punctuate a musical
line. Then these people picked
up whistles and played em the
same way. I think that's where
whistle ornamentation comes
from, anyway.

ChrisLaughlin · Post by **ChrisLaughlin** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 5:48 pm

Bagpipes.

chas · Post by **chas** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 5:58 pm

I think Redwolf is onto something with the Guinness remark. Ornamentation is not peculiar to traditional music (I believe Bach is credited with standardizing the notation for grace notes). There's a saying among orchestral musicians that vibrato (in the strings) can cover a wealth of small mistakes. The same may be said for ornamentation in traditional music, since the fiddlers don't play with much vibrato. Some of my best rolls are accidental.

And her remark about sean nos singing, where ornamentation takes the place of harmony, also has some bearing.

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 6:27 pm

Classical music of all kinds is rife and thick with ornamentation, it just happens to be different ornamentation than is used in Irish music.

Classical ornaments tend to be more melodic and less rhythmic; the opposite is of course true in Irish trad.

There are trills, mordents, inverted mordents, tremolos, flattements, gruppetto (turns), graces, subdivisions, and God-knows what-all else.

You can spend a lifetime in the study of classical ornamentation--in fact, some have.

Best,

--James
http://www.flutesite.com

Soineanta · Post by **Soineanta** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 7:10 pm

If you listen to traditional Irish "sean nos" singing, it makes great use of very similar ornamentation techniques..

I've been wondering about this, and might as well not start a whole new thread.. but what exactly is "sean nos" music? I've heard the term alot, but don't know what it means. (Obviously, or else I wouldn't be asking...)

cowtime · Post by **cowtime** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 7:14 pm

Hey Flamman!! Good to see another pipe band drummer here. Side, Tenor or Bass? I'm guessing side from your name.

I am a reformed piper who was able to give up the pipes for ...... TENOR. What fun!

[ This Message was edited by: cowtime on 2003-02-12 20:14 ]

LimuHead · Post by **LimuHead** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 9:09 pm

My theory is that musical ornaments originated at the same time musical awareness did. There has always been a spirit of inventiveness that naturally comes with facility on an instrument. The 'plain stuff' gets boring, and the urge to spice it up would come quite naturally.

Ornaments came from musicians.....

Just a theory.

spittin_in_the_wind · Post by **spittin_in_the_wind** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 9:10 pm

On 2003-02-12 17:41, Redwolf wrote:
My personal theory is that it arose from someone having trouble keeping hold of his whistle (maybe after one too many Guinnesses?). "Whoops! Wrong note! I'll just slap the right finger down quick and hope no one notices. Hey, that sounded cool! I think I'll call it a 'cut'!"

Just foolin' (well, only just!). I believe a lot of it comes from piping, and perhaps from fiddling as well.

Redwolf

[ This Message was edited by: Redwolf on 2003-02-12 17:44 ]

Some of my best ornamentation comes when I'm about to drop that thing, lol!

Robin

Daniel_Bingamon · Post by **Daniel_Bingamon** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 9:57 pm

Other forms of Folk Music have ornamentation. It seems that court music has a very structured ornament and further away you get from it the more ornamented music gets. Klezmer and Gypsy music has much ornmentation. Klezmer even has chrips and some very complex ornmanents.