So, I was at session tonight, when one of the guys spoke dismissively of The Dubliners. I’m not one to get offended by differing opinions, but the guy spoke of it as if it wasn’t “real” Irish music. Granted, it’s not “traditional” music like what we do at sessions (usually), but I think it’s legitimate Irish folk music. His tone almost seemed to suggest they were nothing more than Posers.
What do you think? Agree? Disagree?
The very nature of the question made me unsure of the correct forum for this…
I can only guess what the reaction might have been had I mentioned my fondness for Flogging Molly.
Let me be the first to disagree.
Words like ‘influential’ and ‘ground-breaking’ spring to mind. These guys were at the forefront of the 60’s folk revival and brought Irish folk and ITM to a new audience. Their music has stood the test of time for 45 years. They were (and are) excellent musicians: Luke Kelly, John Sheahan, Barney McKenna, Ronnie Drew to name a few …Legendary musicians.
Whether you like their music or not, nobody can question the extent of their influence.
I hear this kind of thing too. Partly it’s because they have popular appeal and so are not “select” enough. (Too influential.) Partly because they’ve been around so long that people regard them as the “establishment”. (Too influential!)
Some folk will never be happy with popularisers.
Bands like the Dubliners clearly cannot be classed as traditional because:
1)a good portion of their repetoire is of non-irish origin or of known authorship,
2)the songs that are traditional often only date from around the mid 19th century, and
3)The instrumentation (e.g. guitars) and arrangements are heavily influenced by the American 60’s folk revival.
But wait a minute…. how does this differ from 90% of what one hears played by instrumental ITM groups or in sessions these days?
Perhaps the real distinguishing feature between the ballad and instrumental traditions is that songs tend to have a greater appeal amongst the general (non-musician) population. This causes some snobby “tune purists” to look down their noses at ballads, as well as spawning a lot of cheesy second-rate imitators of good legitimate balladeers such as the Dubliners.
The Dubliners picked up when the Irish learned that the Clancy Bros were getting famous in the US playing all this old stuff; riding their coattails, as it were. They played what was popular. They were rough and dirty and famous for their drunkeness. The Irish loved them.
I think it’s an acquired taste. Some people even like the Pogues.
djm
I think their choice of singers after Luke Kelly and Ronny Drew has been awful.
Paddy Reilly and Patsy Watchorn et al are too Foster and Allen.
They kick the life out of songs that Luke Kelly breathed so much into.
Then again, who could replace Luke Kelly?
Mukade
They played what was popular. They were rough and dirty and famous for their drunkeness. The Irish loved them.
I think it’s an acquired taste. Some people even like the Pogues.
Sadly, they are not widely considered a real Irish folk band as they made the mistake of becoming widely popular amongst real Irish folk.
A while back, I saw on YouTube excerpts from a documentary on the Dubliners which I think originally aired on Irish TV. It had interviews with a number of respected figures in Irish trad/folk music who praised the Dubliners and acknowledged their influence on Irish music. To each his own of course. One may not care for their style of music. But to cast them as “posers” or to lump them in with some later “celtic-rock” bands is not really fair IMHO.
regards,
SteveB
folk music changes and evolves, thats the nature of it. thats why I think the term ITM is kinda funny, what is considered ITM now was considered new and not traditional a couple decades ago. why would you want to play the same songs over and over whithout ever doing anything original anyway? someone made up the songs in the first place. original music in the irish-folk vein is great. it preseves irish roots and brings it to a new generation. I love the dubliners, the pogues, and the tosesers and such like. (although I do despise celtic “world” music, but I think that has more to do with the crappyness and the bourgeoisness of it. and the meaninglessness of it)
It is a travesty to suggest that the Clancys ever wore coattails or any garment other than the aran sweaters in which they were born.
But yeah I see where you are going: Luke Kelly singing ‘Scorn Not His Simplicity’; Shane McGowan singing ‘A Pair Of Brown Eyes’. Acquired tastes indeed. Not music for the pop fan.
I love the Dubliners. But I tend to copy only the tracks that Luke sings on, except for two or three with Ronnie Drew. Luke was (is) my favourite Irish singer by a long chalk and I think the Dubs, on their day, were the best vehicle for his wonderful voice. Opinions, opinions!
Well I got to say I love them dearly, they may not be traditional as some may have it, but I can’t help but grin at most of there songs. Here in the states though I guess it can be complicated as to what people consider to be real Irish music. You turn on any folk band that sings a Irish tune and many people will feel it is as Irish as it gets. To others more involved in the music they consider it just a attempt to ride the coatail of a music style…
In the end we all see things diffrent, but my vote is they are Irish music and they are not half bad at all…
Any one of them could play him under the table, as traditional as you please.
As it happens I’ve been listening to the “Dubliners at Their Best” cd lately. It’s wonderful stuff, all early I suspect. There are at least 5 or 6 instrumental that sound remarkably like traditional jigs and reels. Being in the US in the 60s, I only knew the Clancys and liked them well enough. A few years back, I heard someone say that the Clancys cleaned up their act, put on white sweaters and became tv stars in America - the Dubliners stayed in the pubs.
Thanks for the responses everyone. I’m glad to know I’m not in the minority on this one.
I like when people pretend they’re the trad police. Personally, I look at it this way. In 100 years, people will probably still remember the Dubliners and their music will still be played. Will anybody remember that guy who thinks they’re not traditional, or play music because he played it? Traditions aren’t made by stodgy traditionalists who thinks tradition is something that doesn’t ever change and shouldn’t ever be allowed to.
No kidding. I remember when a piper was performing and a member of the audience came up to him and said that the “Irish hip-hop” (her actual words) was nice and all but couldn’t he play some real Irish music like Danny Boy? That was a fraught moment indeed. 
Saying something like that displays a lack of musical knowledge which is neither uncommon nor particularly hazardous.
Saying it to a piper displays a lack of knowledge of human nature as well as a lack of sense of danger. 
I hope she made it to hospital OK and that her stay was reasonably short. 
In ye olden days (in Sweden, before the Internets) the only Irish music you get your hands on in record store was The Dubliners and, if you were lucky The Chieftains. Nowadays you have access to the best players online (as I´m writing this I’m listening to RnaG. To be able to listen Irish music anytime you want…). I just wish this technology had been around when I was studying Irish. My point is that that the way into Irish music for most people (in most countries of the world) is through The Dubliners. The Chieftains and The Pogues. I haven´t listened to any of those bands in many years, but it was them that lit the spark and my life would’nt have been the same without them. For me, playing the music has made all the difference. If I hadn´t started on the highland pipes I would never have met the beautiful girl (a dancer) that´s sleeping in my bed as I type this. I´m rambling a bit (six in the morning here( but for me, getting a taste of folk through the Pogues (which has since led to an appreciation of many other types of traditional music) has made all the difference. It’s easy to rag on the commercially successful bands, but they are the gateway to a deeper appreciation of the music.
Isn’t that the truth, though?!
Count me another Dubliners fan.
Granted, there is almost always a commercialization, usually so as to be able to actually sell the albums, but that doesn’t necessarily end the value of the traditional aspects of it. Whatever attracts people’s attention to the genre, and inspires them to look for more, learn the tunes, reach deeper into the history and appreciate the players, is a good thing… even… (cough, duck) ‘River Dance’ has brought Irish Music to the fore when it might otherwise have dropped below most people’s musical horizons.
True, but the “Irish hip-hop” bit was particularly special, I think.
She left unscathed. The piper - a reasonably goodnatured man - was, I fear, scarred for life.