A reader of this board was courageous enough to e-mail me personally pointing out how destructively negative my comments on this thread have been, and I am thankful for that letter.
I agree with her and I really want to apologize to those I may have hurt.
The Clips and Snips board is a hard thing for me. On one hand I am very proud of people for posting their tunes. That takes a lot of courage. It is great that new whistlers are brave enough to show how they are progressing and to solicit suggestions for improvement.
My frustration is with even newer whistlers being led astray. A couple weeks ago a woman on this board posted about how her daughter was learning tunes of Clips and Snips. Immediately I e-mailed her letting her know that I didn’t think that was such a good idea and I gave her a list of CDs to listen to in order to get her started properly. As someone who has taught whistle, I cringe at the thought of newcomers being led astray unnecessarily. In the past I have been more gentle about the posts on Clips and Snips, but when writing the earlier posts on this thread I was simply fed up with seeing newbies led astray by not-quite-so-newbies. Still, I apologize for my vitriolic words and I’m even more sorry if they hurt anyone.
By saying that the clips on Clips and Snips were bad, I didn’t mean to discourage those people who post to that site (though I am sure I did). I am continually told by more advanced players (after five years of whistle and two years of flute) “Don’t worry, you’ll learn eventually. We all have to start somewhere.” As frustrating, humbling and sometimes humiliating as this has been, it has constantly reminded me that if I really want to be a good player I can not just rest on my laurels and think that I’m good enough. One visit to a decent session will remind me just how not-so-good I am.
I am the kind of person who likes to be told up-front if I’m doing something wrong. That way I can evaluate the situation and learn how to do it the right way. Without being told I’m doing something wrong I could end up wasting a LOT of time continuing to do it wrong, instead of taking just a little time to learn how to do it right. I don’t take personal offence when someone tells me I play poorly. Sure, I sometimes end up a little bruised by the situation, but usually I end up thanking them and asking how I can improve. That’s just the way I work. Unfortunately, I often forget that not everyone works that way and I end up hurting feelings.
To those whose feelings I have hurt - I’m sorry.
Happy whistling,
Chris
Uhh Chris,
Any chance you could sum that up in 25 words or less? 
Loren
Chris meant: “I love to be told the truth in the face and that’s why I did it about the Clips’n’Snips”. Chris I share 200% your toughts about learning and how we should react to criticism. The day that you think you know enough or you are good enough not to be criticized is the day you stop learning. I also agree with you about the quality of the stuff on Snips, including mine actually, and maybe those people hurt by what you said think too highly of themselves?
As far as “snips and clips” goes, are people thinking of it as a gallery or as a studio? Is this their best work or works in progress? There can be a lot more growth if tunes are posted with the intent of recieving instruction from the more seasoned players. I haven’t been poking around much through the site, so I don’t know if such feedback is being posted. I haven’t posted any tunes myself, but if I did post, I would hope for some feedback, both good and bad.
On 2002-08-09 15:55, ChrisLaughlin wrote:
I agree with her and I really want to apologize to those I may have hurt.
The Clips and Snips board is a hard thing for me. On one hand I am very proud of people for posting their tunes. That takes a lot of courage. It is great that new whistlers are brave enough to show how they are progressing and to solicit suggestions for improvement.
My frustration is with even newer whistlers being led astray.
I wanted to thank you for your comments, Chris. They were honest, and very helpful. I agree whole-heartedly with everything you’ve said regarding Clips. It is difficult to give someone feedback that they do not want to hear. But, lip service is a disservice. By letting someone continue playing incorrectly there are no favors being done. Clips was started for fun and with the hope of getting feedback from other players. Sadly, that has not happened. Obviously, very few want to be publicly critiqued, and I can’t say that I blame them. Personally, I’ve emailed some friends on the board and have received very helpful advice. Maybe listeners don’t feel qualified to offer up such advice, I don’t know. Maybe people are reluctant to hurt other’s feelings. I can only speak for myself in saying I invite feedback; actually, request it, from any players willing to pass it on. We should all be more supportive of each other in that regard, and make an effort to email each other after a Clips post. If you (the collective, or personally) think I suck, then tell me why I suck. I won’t improve otherwise.
Teri
On 2002-08-09 15:55, ChrisLaughlin wrote:
My frustration is with even newer whistlers being led astray. A couple weeks ago a woman on this board posted about how her daughter was learning tunes of Clips and Snips. Immediately I e-mailed her letting her know that I didn’t think that was such a good idea and I gave her a list of CDs to listen to in order to get her started properly. As someone who has taught whistle, I cringe at the thought of newcomers being led astray unnecessarily.
Chris, I realize that various CDs have been mentioned and discussed on this list, generally from the standpoint of being just good, entertaining CDs. But if you have a consolidated list available of what you consider essential CDs, seen from the standpoint of a teacher (this is the important aspect), I would appreciate a copy of that list… I’m sure others would profit as well.
CDon -
Check out this thread for some good suggestions for listening http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?topic=1377&forum=2
Best,
Chris
This whole thread has reassured me that, even though some peoples’ way of expressing themselves may be a little sharp for some tastes, there are good hearts with good intentions here.
The thing about critiquing people, either in public or private, is a touchy thing for me. I worry too much about offending people by telling them where they need to improve. It’s tougher to say things to people who have been playing awhile. A newbie doesn’t have a pedestal to be knocked off, you wonder how offensive and presumptious you may sound suggesting things to people who may have been playing longer than yourself. (And, maybe they’re not so impressed with your own playing. Who knows?) Also, I wonder what credibility I have with people who don’t know me. From time to time, I’ve seen advice thrown out by newbies and more experienced people alike on practice techniques, and I threw my own two cents into the mix. I thought some people really didn’t know what they were talking about, but it all looked equally credible in print.
Several times in the past, I’ve written posts making suggestions I thought were useful about this and that. Often, I got no feedback, and wondered if I made any sense or if anyone believed I knew what I was talking about. Anyway, I’ve rarely felt much compulsion to make people accept my opinion or take my advice; I’ve usually been take-it-or-leave-it as you like about advice. (Ironically, I’m a professional advice giver now. Go figure.)
Clips and Snips has always been in the spirit of fun from my perspective. A look-what-I-did thing; show-and-tell. I haven’t looked to it for technical expertise and I cringe when I listen back to tunes I’ve posted (because I can play better now! Why didn’t I wait?)
I go to sessions, and while they’re fun, (I like the friends I’ve met there) I sometimes feel discouraged about the level of playing. I wish there was someone really good I could learn from and get inspiration from. I also feel the same way about myself showing up and not being excellent. But, if I wait until I am, (or I feel I am), I’ll be dead before I ever get out there. That’s how I feel about posting to Clips. I was amused by Steve Jones comments about getting used to the idea of people posting on line like that at that level of playing. Yep, we probably won’t be contacted by agents at this point. 
I usually post a tune within a day or two of learning it just because I’m so psyched about learning and playing it. I know I could post a better version later, but I can’t wait to get it out there. This whole music thing for me is about an intense feeling of inspiration and joy in the playing. My wife says I’m a bit obsessive. (D’ya think?) I say it’s a good thing. It gives me something cool to look forward to every day.
Tony
On 2002-08-10 01:02, TonyHiggins wrote:
Several times in the past, I’ve written posts making suggestions I thought were useful about this and that. Often, I got no feedback, and wondered if I made any sense or if anyone believed I knew what I was talking about.
Whether I’ve said so or not, I always find your responses to my questions (such is in the “Is it just me?” thread on the other forum) to be enormously helpful. I take your advice seriously because (1) it makes perfect sense, and (2) your playing aptly demonstrates that you know whereof you speak. I really appreciate the time and effort you spend helping others, and I should have said so before now.
On 2002-08-10 00:01, ChrisLaughlin wrote:
CDon -
Check out this thread for some good suggestions for listening > http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?topic=1377&forum=2
Best,
Chris
Thank you Chris… I’ll do it.
I’ve refrained from getting involved with discussions of Clips&Snips, which I like a lot, because there seems to be an underlying assumption here that I disagree with – that there’s a “correct” way to play a tune, or one particular way it should sound.
I think of music as interpretive. I’m not interested in hearing many people play, or try to play, the same exact thing. What’s far more interesting to me is to listen to what different people make of the notes on the page or the combined memory of different ways they’ve heard something played, or even their own take on something they’ve heard played the same way by a dozen other people.
In my own mind, the analogy for music is theater. A playwright has a work in her mind, and nothing the playwright can do can get the exact contents of her mind onto the page. The words, and stage directions (which most directors and actors then ignore anyway), represent a best attempt. I think of notes on the page as the same thing. Every single quarter note does not have to be the exact same length as every single other quarter note. It’s an imperfect way of portraying what the songwriter hears in her head. Same with playing by ear. If someone learns a play or a poem from hearing it, when that person performs the work, it will not be an exact duplicate of what was heard.
For me, that’s part of what keeps arts feeling alive.
Tery
On 2002-08-09 22:16, CDon wrote:
On 2002-08-09 15:55, ChrisLaughlin wrote:
My frustration is with even newer whistlers being led astray. A couple weeks ago a woman on this board posted about how her daughter was learning tunes of Clips and Snips. Immediately I e-mailed her letting her know that I didn’t think that was such a good idea and I gave her a list of CDs to listen to in order to get her started properly. As someone who has taught whistle, I cringe at the thought of newcomers being led astray unnecessarily.
I would appreciate a copy of that list… I’m sure others would profit as well.
Here’s that list! ~ L.E. McCulloughs 101 Favorite Irish Session Tunes (or something like
that) - book and tape set
~ Mary Bergin - Feadoga Stain
~Mary Berin - Feadoga Stain 2
~ Gavin Whelan
~Laurence Nugent - Two for Two
One great function for Clips & Snips is as a tool for evaluating one’s own progress. I’m often heartened to listen to clips from there and think “Well, I’m not so far away from being that good…” I frankly have never considered learning a tune from there, but I’m not sure it would be all that harmful. My experience has been that my performance on tunes has been limited by my skills, not by the performance I’m learning from. Admittedly, I don’t think you’d want to take a C&S performance as the final word on a tune, but anyone who works seriously on learning the whistle is going to hear plenty of better recordings (and live sessions, hopefully) before too long. I’ve certainly learned tunes from sheet music completely wrong, but when I hear them correctly on a recording or in a session, the light bulb goes on (“Aha!”) and I work on (re-)learning them more correctly.
Addendum: To put it another way, I think it is enthusiasm and support that are in shortest supply, and C&S (like the Rocky Mountain Session CD) provide that, even if they do lack a bit on the absolute musicianship scale.
– Scott T.
[ This Message was edited by: srt19170 on 2002-08-10 14:06 ]
Tery makes a very valid point about playing music and the assumptions that are implied in posts about Clips. It’s clearly stated on the home page that there is a focus on Irish music, but it is not exclusive to it. We have posts of Asian music, as well as non-“Celtic” original compositions. As for how Irish music “should sound,” is it your intention to travel that road? Some of us: me, for sure, and Chris Laughlin have expressed an intense desire to reach for the heights of playing Irish music with the best of them. That doesn’t mean everyone else aspires to this or even cares. I recall someone saying they play Country & Western music (shudder) on the whistle. Anyone who criticizes whistle playing because it doesn’t meet the West Clare standards and protocols, well, what’s your point? The only relevant conversation between Irish music purists would be about how to get better at it. Speaking to someone not involved in that pursuit can only be about other things, not comparing what they’re doing to playing Irish music.
Sometimes, I get the feeling pursuing Irish music perfection is like a religion to some people. It kind of is to me. I find no fault with anyone being passionate about it. Quite to the contrary, I celebrate that. Learning this music and knowing how much work I have ahead of myself gives me a reason to look forward to the next day. At work, I’m thinking about tunes I need to learn tonight. I can honestly say, no exaggeration, that I haven’t been bored in years. I played for an hour and a half at a park this morning on a bench. Walkers and joggers gave me thumbs up as they passed by. I know the whistle carried across the whole park. When I headed back to my car, there was this guy sitting in his van listening to rock on his radio. Know what I’m saying? I probably annoyed him. (In case you don’t know what I’m saying )
So, to beat this point into the ground, (that’s what this message board is for) The board, itself, and the posting of tunes is for fun. We each get something different from it and give something different to it. For me, it’s about fun. If it wasn’t, I wouldn’t do it (and wouldn’t worry about going to hell for not doing it.)
And, thanks, Ridesart, for your comments. I won’t keep so quiet in future.
Tony
I dunno about other folks, but I think that everything I’ve put on clips and snips was about a week old.
On 2002-08-09 17:56, mamakash wrote:
As far as “snips and clips” goes, are people thinking of it as a gallery or as a studio? Is this their best work or works in progress?
Morning Wanderer,My clips to date have most definitly been ‘works in progress’(what i wonder is When i’ll make any progress! lol)If i waited to record the ‘definitive article’ we’d be here until doomsday!
Hi Tony,
I’m not sure I said exactly what I mean. I think of Irish music as folk music, and as a living thing. I grew up with a lot of live music (mostly Irish) and the same people would play the same tune differently, depending on what was going on in their lives or other people’s at the time. I might like one version or speed more than another, or I might hear one version or speed more than others, but I was not taught that one version was right and all others were wrong. Which does not mean I didn’t learn to tell the better players – but it wasn’t by their accurate rendition of a tune.
To me, it’s like the difference between store-bought bread and homemade. The store-bought might be made to some kind of specifications, and might be the same each time, but the homemade is more fun to work with, makes the house smell great, and is much more “alive” than the other.
Maybe there’s a difference between people who see Irish music as part of a living folk tradition, and people who have more of a “classical” view of music.
Tery
On 2002-08-10 14:04, srt19170 wrote:
Addendum: To put it another way, I think it is enthusiasm and support that are in shortest supply, and C&S (like the Rocky Mountain Session CD) provide that, even if they do lack a bit on the absolute musicianship scale.
I agree here - which is the main reason I am making the CDs. It’s hard to keep up with tunes on professional CDs when you’re learning, and since I don’t get to many sessions (you’d think with all these potatoes here there would be Irish somewhere!) it’s been hard for me to remember that other people are learning too. I love hearing regular people play, even when they are still learning and flubbing, because it’s a reminder that I’m not the only one with work yet to do!
Tery, I was thinking about this thread before I read your most recent post. I had received an email from someone who was put off by what sounded like elitist condemnation of the Clips site. There are lots of things to think about (when you have spare time you’re not devoting to practicing). I wonder how ‘traditional’ being a professional recording artist, who has time to practice and play umpteen hours a day is and how traditional virtuosity is. You know he’s not out digging potatoes or cutting turf much. Sure, there are people from the old days (and now) who are recorded because they were recognized as phenomenal players. They inspired others to strive for excellence and we’re lucky to have them. On the other hand, a folk tradition is carried on by ordinary people, many of whom won’t be tremendously talented or dedicated, or don’t have the time to devote enormous effort to improving their skills. They may still play from the heart and maybe only entertain themselves or some family at a birthday or wedding. If they post on the internet, that’s cool. I look forward to it. Are we foreigners part of the tradition of Irish music? Technically, most of us are probably not, depending upon what you call ‘traditional.’ Learning from cd’s and ‘foreign’ sessions is not traditional. As a matter of fact, I heard ‘sessions’ came into being, at least in pubs, in the '60’s. Before that, it was ceili dances, often in homes, or playing in a kitchen. I understand dances were commonly held at cross roads in Ireland. (I’m guessing there are some pagan issues in regards to that. ) Anyway, the traditions change drastically with the times. People talk about the influences on the musicians. Well, there aren’t foreign troops in Ireland now, and no famine, and emmigration has cut way back, etc. People are more affluent, suburbs are going up all over, high tech industry is growing. Is the new generation of Irish disqualified from feeling the music of the bog, being deprived of the great tragedies of that country? My first real experience with Irish music was putting on a record album of my dad’s that a visiting uncle from Ireland brought him. I heard some jigs and reels on tenor banjo by The Dubliners. My reaction was immediate speechlessness. I was 18 yrs old. I became an immediate fanatic. I was living in California, not Ireland. I emmigrated from Ireland as a 2 yr old, so it didn’t leave a great impression. My point is that the music itself, as a genre, has that kind of impact on a lot of people. All over the world. It touches people a certain way. Now it’s up to me to pursue it if I want to ‘get it right.’ I can’t hang out in Clare, so I listen to recordings a lot. I practice a lot. The more I practice, the more I understand what’s going on in the recordings and try to incorporate it into my playing. I have this constant feeling of desire to get hold of the music and make it great. It’s the hardest thing I’ve ever tried to do, but it’s great fun. I’ve wandered all over the place with this post and you may be wondering how it relates to your post. Don’t ask me.
Tony
My bit on the learning from others thing.
It is my belief that everybody can learn something from somebody else, no matter how long or short a time that person has been playing. it may be that a new player has a simplicity of expression which suddenly makes you realise that you were trying to do too much.
Iplay classical style violin, and aged about 10/11 I went along to a beginner’s saturday morning workshop, despte having been playing for about 5 years. I learnt a lot, not about where to put myfingers or how to hold the bow, but about how to playwith others and enjoyeasier music which I might otherwise have found boring. I think this can be true of all standards and all styles.
I would happily post to c&s, but I have no idea how, and my computer won’t even let me listen to them (so you may think quite justifiably that my opinion is irrelevant).
Atutorial might be useful?
Jo.