As a new whistler you should listen to lots of whistle stuff and get a feel for the music. Don’t rely on what you hear on this site, though. Get CD’s by Mary Bergin. (Dave Auty and Tony Higgins can be found on this site, and they know what they are doing. Many others are not on the right track musically. )
I’m in the process of correcting a problem. I was using tonguing and ornamentation to add “edge” or rhythm to the music. I was not creating a smooth flow, which sounds so much better, and allows for greater speed.
Here’s the weird part, I’ve been around (and loved) Irish music all my life. But I wasn’t listening to whistes in particular, and I wasn’t listening with a discriminating ear. Clips n Snips was where I turned and it really didn’t lead me where I needed to go. Brother Steve may have mentioned the “flow” issue on his web site. If he did, I wasn’t getting it. He does appear todefend tonguing when he admits to doing it quite a bit, and I think this can lead newcomers down the wrong road. It did me.
Here’s my advice to those who are moving from newcomers to “players”. Try to make the flow of the notes sound as much like the human voice as possible. Minimize tonguing. Let it flow. I’m not an expert myself, but I think this advice is reasonable. Other comments or opinions are welcome.
I was using tonguing and ornamentation to add “edge” or rhythm to the music.
That sounds alright to me…I think. Have you posted any examples of your edge and/or rhythm?
Probably depends on the style you’re trying to emulate. I’ve heard wildly different ways of playing whistle that were considered “correct” by people who’s opinions I respect.
There probably are good and bad examples of playing on Clinps-n-Snips, but I don’t think it’s primarily intended as a teaching tool.
i really enjoy clips and snips but feel lately its hard for some people to post tunes without getting some sort of hack for the way they play.Ex a recent post includes a dig against another board member promoting their own site.(if someone wants to dedicate a site to the way they play, well thats great,they are enjoying what they do.) It is a site for mainly amateur players to have fun recording a tune and too share it with others. The site and most of the people participating dont claim any more than that. I agree it shouldnt be a tutoring tool on how to play but a good site to get ideas on tunes to learn and compare sounds in whistles. The whole tonguing or not to tongue thing has been done to death (please see other previous posts on this.) Live and let live, play and let play.
Ever notice how a good player can take a generation and make it sing more than a novice with a copeland. The same is true on ornamentation. In the hands of a good player regardless of tonguing or not, a piece can sound great. In my opinion the biggest mistake is when people jump to using ornaments before they even have basic timing and feel of a tune down. Clean, even, playing wins everytime in a battle against percieved fancy but sloppy playing.
Hey, it wasn’t me, was it? I comment on people’s playing sometimes but mostly to encourage them, unless they ask for constructive criticism.
I think Clips&Snips is great, exactly because there are experienced and beginner players there; i listen to practically all tunes that are posted, as time permits. Sometimes i embarass myself by posting some of mine too.
It’s not a teaching tool, unless you go just for the real good players (e.g. Peter Laban).
For the record, i thought Mongoose was winding us up.
You gotta take it all in stride. One of the most important parts of becoming a musician is learning to deal with criticism and rejection. It’s good for you, thickens your skin!
I personally think that all the different styles/approaches are part of the charm and fascination of Irish traditional music. I’d be very disappointed if we all suddenly fell into some kind of “mold” that made us "smooth and “flowing” all the time. Individuals styles have their merit. My two cents…
and just to clarify i havent entered into this thread because of anything said against me.
i agree constructive criticism is great and a usefull tool. I have found my wife to be my greatest critique. It almost means more coming from someone who doesnt play whistle. Out of the blue she’ll say, “i really like that tune or the way youre playing” also “that sounds terrible”, lol its all good but it comes from an unbiased ear and its helped me alot.
Here’s two more cents!!! You guys are breaking me up!!!
I think that whether or not criticism is constructive depends on how it’s delivered. I don’t think that negative comments should be posted on the board. Public humilation is not constructive. Perhaps it might thicken a person’s skin, but it might also totally discourage them altogether. If I had any suggestions for a person, I’d PM them and would hope that I’d be treated with the same respect.
I’m not suggesting here that all the advise given on the Clips and Snips forum is unpleasant or destructive. Most of what I’ve seen is very constructive and probably very much appreciated. Some are a bit harsh, though and shouldn’t be publicly posted. Just my opinion. I hate to see new players squashed…
AFAIK, Clips and snips has never been put forth as a site for whistle technique. It’s to some extent a site for comparing whistles, although the sound depends as much on how the whistle is recorded as it does on the particular whistle. It’s also served as a site for whistlers to solicit comments (on the C&F especially) on their techniques. I’ve posted pieces for this reason.
Also, if you’ve been around Irish music all your life, you ought to be able to discriminate between the pros and novices. Most of Irish whistling is not particular to the whistle, it’s particular to Irish music. You’ll learn a lot more from professional fiddlers than you ever will from amateur whistlers.
I really hear ya there. There’s something amazing about hearing a great musician, one you know can play at 100 MPH with his eyes closed, playing a simple, uncluttered, slow tune. There’s often a confidence, a presence there – as if they know you won’t have an initial “wow” response, but something deeper can hear what’s going on, even if you don’t recognize it at first. It’s sometimes said, “the art is to conceal the art.” But I don’t feel it’s literally concealing on the part of the performer – it’s not forcing or “displaying” the art which naturally “conceals” it. Mature art developed through discernment, experimentation, and introspection doesn’t have to yell, “look at me!” – even if it is fast or complex. It takes some maturity to recognize what appeals to you in other musicians (especially those with ability roughly equal to yours), and apply the same standards to yourself.
Sometimes a person who’s a virtuoso on one instrument, but has very little facility on another, will be able to play the “unfamiliar” instrument with restraint and taste, and sound “better” than someone with much more facility. It’s as if knowing your limits is more important than what your limits are. I’m not sure if this restraint and taste can be truly duplicated by someone who has not yet developed musical proficiency in one way or another, even if they have the physical tools to accomplish it. But it’s worth striving for.
Simple/complex, staccato/flowing, fast/slow, high/low, acoustic/electronic, pure/rough, all these “opposites” in style seem to push hot buttons in people. But I think making an intelligent, personal, informed choice about your own style is more important than what the choice is. I think we’d all really agree, deep down, that a balance of those factors (and others) is what’s most interesting, and when and how to employ them is what art, taste, and musicianship is all about.
Of course, that thread title caught my eye! You know, I have no idea how much space I’ve used up on the server. When they send me a warning, I’ll have to start deleting the oldest stuff. (It has been pruned from time to time- strictly by oldest post.) For new people, the site was started by John McHaffie and I quickly took it over from him because I was really psyched about it and I didn’t think he posted my tunes fast enough. It’s become pretty huge in volume of tunes. Whatever fits…
The old message board had a primitive sound file posting thing and when that was yanked, we started batting around the idea of the Clips site. (John coined the title, by the way.) My idea has always been to provide simply a sharing site for everyone who wants to post, beginner or expert. ‘Sharing’ is the operant word. It always seemed to me kind of nutty to have a message board for musicians without a way of sharing our music. I’ve made it a point to not comment on anyone’s skill or style in order to allow beginners to feel comfortable posting. I will admit there is the odd tune that makes me ask, “what was he/she thinking about?” I’ll also admit that when I hear people offering advice online and I’ve never heard them play, I wonder- ‘you can talk the talk, can you walk the walk?’ (I learned that line from Full Metal Jacket). I have seen people in person offer advice on technique that I thought had no business offering it. But, I ain’t sayin’ nuttin.
I also listen to people who post and I’d love to offer what I think would be a useful comment, but if one doesn’t ask, no way am I going to butt in. I will say about posts where people are new and haven’t acquired the skills that come with time and practice, I still hear real life in the music- something from the heart, and that’s fun to hear.
Tony
By the way, I just posted 5 tunes this evening, including posts from Denmark and France.
Tony my hat is of to you. You do a fantastic job with the site you run. I agree sometimes you hear someone who is relatively new but they have that spark in there playing. I make a conscious effort to follow their progress. Your own playing yourself is coming along really well
I know ive posted alot lately, lol but am sure it will calm down soon. (kid in candystore sort of thing.)
Good posting Tony-I agree with you that one of(if not the main) point(s)of ‘Clips’ is sharing
This topic has come up before,and my answer has always been the same;for me ‘Clips’ is like a musical ‘show and tell’ open to anyone regardless of ability(or in my case,talent ).
It’s a bit of fun,and its good to hear other players on the same learning curve as yourself,whilst I wouldn’t advice people to use ‘Clips’ as a learning tool,it does bolster your confidence to find that not everyone else who posts can play like Mary Bergin and that you are that lone totally useless player!
The actual process of recording a clip is the real learning tool.
There was a discussion about this in the chat room one evening and it was suggested that perhaps when someone posts a tune it might be nice if they added a little bit about their whistle/flute/pipe/whatever background: how long they’ve been playing, ever had lessons?, what type of music they’re interested in playing, that type of thing. It was bascially agreed that these things don’t add up to whether you’re a good ITM player or not, but perhaps newcomers would be a little more cautious about learning all about the music from a tune posted by a person who picked up a whistle for the first time on Friday and posted Twinkle Twinkle on Sunday because they were excited about it and were just having some fun (which is fine by me, BTW). (Boy, that sentence just went on and on…hope it made sense!)
Amen, brother. This is a shining bit of wisdom that has taken me years to learn for myself.
I have enjoyed skulking around the clips and snips archive. But one shouldn’t take any recording (including Mary Bergin) as gospel. Use them as reference points to inspire you and help progress on your own path (technically and musically).
I’m glad I happened to mention Tony’s name in a postive light. I didn’t know, or had forgotten, that it’s he who manages the site. Like I said, it’s a good site, but newcomers need to be aware of what it is and what it is not. The message is NOT: “Learn to play like all these experts”.
It’s become pretty huge in volume of tunes. Whatever fits…
I’ll also admit that when I hear people offering advice online and I’ve never heard them play, I wonder- ‘you can talk the talk, can you walk the walk?’ (I learned that line from Full Metal Jacket). I have seen people in person offer advice on technique that I thought had no business offering it. But, I ain’t sayin’ nuttin.