A new tune for me this, learnt it yesterday for our Morris side.
It doesn’t make a great deal of difference when playing with a load of others
but as a piece on it’s own how should I tackle the Bs and Gs in the A part?
X:1
T:Upton on Severn Stick Dance
M:6/8
K:G
d|dBB BAG|AGA BGE|DGG GBd|edB A2d|
dBB BAG|AGA BGE|DGG G2B|AGA G2||
G|GBd g2d|edc BAG|GBd g2d|edB A2G|
GBd g2d|edc Bcd|ege dBG|AGA G2:|
You can do whatever you like I suppose. It’s a stylistic matter. First of all you can wonder if you want to introduce specific Irish ornamentation into Morris playing, some sides feel strongly about preserving their Englishness after all.
Once that’s decided, you can take it in whatever way you see fit.
That said dBB B is a very strong rhythmic statement, given the choice I’d keep it much the way it is dBB ~B3 ~A etc could work I suppose.
(have to run now, later maybe..)
Mr Gumby, I totally agree with what you’ve said here and that was the whole reason for asking the question.
I’ll play around with it for a bit and see what happens.
I’ve tried tonguing the Bs but I’m not really happy with the sound. It may feel different when I’m playing with others.
As I understand it, in jigs “proper” rolls only occur on the beat anyway? Anyhow, where three quavers are shifted this way (dBB BAG), I’d usually tap or tongue the 2nd and cut or tongue the 3rd one on the beat.
I suppose you could just as well cut the 2nd and tap the 3rd like in a roll, but at least as my own playing is concerned, this tends to make the rhythm a bit [i.e. even more] fuzzy; I think cuts are generally stronger than taps.
I’d question the notion that cuts etc are spasifically irish, as england also had bagpipes and it’s not impossible that pipe techniques could cross over. I’ve heard similer techniques used by native american flute players even.
This tune does have a lot of ‘bounce’ how I usually hear outher sides play it. You could try emphisiseing by blowing a little harder on the note attack, or adding a lead in note.
I’d question the notion that cuts etc are spasifically irish,
The question was very specifically about rolls. I think I am on fairly safe ground when I assume they’re not really part of the English traditional style of playing. Mind you I just checked the British Library sound archive and no example of English whistle playing came up to confirm or deny that notion (as for anyone interested there’s a wealth of whistle recordings, Micho Russell, Jim Donohue and others in that archive). Cuts are an obvious way of ornamenting notes, you will indeed find them in various traditions in some shape or form.
I play this for our side and tend to cut the repeated notes rather than rolling them - something like dB[A]B[A]B , (although I just checked and I actually seem to cut the first interval to an A and then create the second interval by a quick tap of the 4th hole.
There is, of course, no ‘right’ answer, but that’s just another option to explore.
Great tune, originally an Appalachian tune put to the Upton dance by Maud Karpeles in the 30s for EFDSS dance displays.
Any hints on how to find them? I just did a quick search and came up with nothing.
Go to British Library Sounds and search along the lines of ‘tin whistle’ under the ‘world/traditional music’ heading.
Terry Yarnell is among those who deposited large collections of recordings made during the sixties and seventies.
Try:
http://sounds.bl.uk/World-and-traditional-music/Terry-Yarnell-Collection
and then the ´r´ for Russell 
Yes, but some of the Jim Donohue tracks were from other collections and I suspect Colomon is after those rather than the Micho ones.
[added:]
Here’s one example
Thanks for the replies,
I’ve been playing around with it a little this evening and have come up with as sfmans said
dB[A]B[A] BAG but also d2B BAG which for me gives better emphasis on the last B.
I’ll be playing it with others tomorrow night a few times so I’ll let you know what happens.
Now there’s a whole other question I was going to bring up on another thread but it’s related so may as well do it here.
I play English tunes on the whistle, whether it’s a high D or low D.
I come across whistle players from time to time playing for Morris sides like last weekend
but it always seems to be their second instrument and generally tend to play in a recorder like style.
My question is, is there a particular way/style of playing whistle for English tunes or should I just
carry on doing what I do, putting cuts, taps, triplets and tonguing where needed and leave out the rolls.
I’ve not found anything of whistle players playing English tunes except pipe and tabor, different thing all together.
My question is, is there a particular way/style of playing whistle for English tunes or should I just
carry on doing what I do, putting cuts, taps, triplets and tonguing where needed and leave out the rolls.
I’ve not found anything of whistle players playing English tunes except pipe and tabor, different thing all together.
There are some documented/recorded English whistle players but I seem to remember they were more from northern parts. I think it is really up to yourself (and to an extend the people you play with) how you want to progress if there are no really strong stylistic examples within the Morris tradition you can follow.
The reasons I mentioned this in the first place is first of all the strong negative reaction some English folkies have to introducing anything Irish and secondly my own poking into the assumption on the forums you NEED to play rolls and cranns and all that stuff that is so specific to one tradition, on the assumption that these things are connected to the instrument.
If you’re striving for any sort of authenticity (which is one option) I’d suggest you let your choices be influenced by other instruments with a more recognised standing in the Morris tradition. If you’re not too fussed, I would say anything that fits with the music the people you’re playing with won’t have the Folk Police van pull up to drag you away. Don’t worry about it too much.
I think that is simply that what works for ‘close to the floor’ Irish dancing doesn’t work for high stepping, slower English dancing. Its an oversimplification (presented as such by tutors at couple of English dance workshops I have been to) but Irish style players tend to fill in the gaps whearas English style players tend to create spaces. The Road to Lisdoonvarna played for English dancing, as a slow jig, doesn’t need rolls (though there is plenty of time for them) and may have staccato notes on the beat (and generate “a strong negative reaction” from certain quarters 
).
Would rolls help give a rhythm that supports the dancers ?
When The great Jean Michel Veillon consciously set out to more or less invent an ‘authentic’ way of playing Breton music on the wooden flute he did it by listening to the more traditional instruments associated with that music and recreating their ornamentation and phrasing on the flute.
There is, sadly, no strong ‘tradition’ of whistle playing for English music and English dance music, so we have to do the same. The nearest we have is probably the pipe and tabor, and that’s a staccato style with space ( as has been mentioned) and real drive.
I must emphasise I’m a long, long way from doing this as a serious studied exercise; but if you listen to p+t, bagpipers, fiddlers and box players who have made such studies or grown up in that tradition, you will hear that there is a definite style of ornamentation and phrasing that transplants very well to the whistle and flute. It’s very hard to describe to describe, but you know it when you hear it - John Doonan’s piccolo and Jo Freya’s whistle with Old Swan spring to mind.
And as I always do when commenting on playing whistle for Morris - have you thought of taking up fife/ piccolo? Much louder so much better for the dancers and audience to hear, carries over squeezeboxes- You won’t regret it, best musical thing I ever did!
I’ve had a good think about and a listen to how I’m playing and I’ve come to the conclusion that what I’m doing already sounds about right for English music.
Rolling the Bs just gets fuzzy just where the tune needs drive.
We played ‘Upton Stick’ a few times through last Sunday at our session and either cutting all the Bs and Gs or d2B BAG etc works fine and probably been the way I would have played it if I hadn’t thought about it in the first place.
Also talking to a few players this last week they say I have an ‘English’ rather than ‘Irish’ sound to how I play.
This hasn’t been a conscious effort on my part but me just coping what I’m listening to over the last few years.
Thanks everyone who posted here, it’s been a real concern of mine over the last few months because I’ve had nothing to compare myself to.
One thing I am doing now as a result of firstly posting Bantry Bay on another thread and the comments I got from that and consciously listening to how I’m playing English tunes is trying to reduce the amount I tongue notes.
I’m trying to use tongued notes where they drive the tune rather than being lazy and tonguing just to get the note out.