Does anyone know of any serial numbers of Rudall simple system flutes that have ceased to exist for some reason or other? I’m thinking of flutes that have been broken beyond repair, crushed, burnt in a house fire, destoyed under the blitz, stolen, lost, gone to a watery grave, put in the trash by mistake or deliberately, etc. I’d like to include any such serial numbers in the register. We’d know which flutes can be written off. I wonder how many Rudall flutes consigned to the attics or cellars of houses were destroyed in London or Liverpool under the blitz years?
Around 7,200 simple system flutes are thought to have been produced by Rudall & Rose, Rudall, Rose & Carte, Rudall Carte & Co. I believe David has catalogued over 600 flutes, I have registered 273 flutes. This means that there are maybe over 6,000 flutes unaccounted for. There are collectors such as Flatley and Maloney who do not wish to divulge the number of flutes, or the serial numbers of flutes in their possesion. Fair enough. I doubt that they have more than 1,000 flutes between them, which would still leave 5,000 flutes out in the wild
“Will this be like aerial combat, with independent verification to establish a confirmed ‘kill’?” Bob
Yes, if possible, or some other kind of forensic evidence. No, I think we’ll just have to trust people won’t we.
“1000 flutes between them” !!! - you couldn’t perhaps give us their addresses, and when they’re next on holiday ? " Holmes
A very rough estimate - maybe Paddy & Michael have a couple of hundred flutes between them, who knows? but there are other collectors, and owners with 2-3 flutes, so again who knows? I suppose many of the 7200 flutes thought to have been produced between the 1820’s and early 1900’s have perished. As a Rudall nerd it’s nice to think there are 4-5000 Rudalls lying around in attics and wardrobes waiting to be discovered, but that’s probably just wishful thinking.
This is little help register-wise, but I have one recently acquired “orphan” R&R head - no serial #, of course. I have seen at least two others, one a PH, go through on eBay in the last 9 years. I think that the sales records I was keeping until a couple of years ago include at least one instance of serial marked body parts of one or more incomplete flutes. Will have a dig after the weekend. I suppose the heads at least add to the body count… though one should bear in mind that a good few of the early Böhm conical flutes the firm made had simple system type tuning barrel heads, including some PHs, and we also know of several flutes which came originally equipped with two alternative heads, so head count does not directly relate to putative body count.
I once had a RR flute in the workshop which had a replacement, unmarked upper middle joint. The rest was original. No serial number of course…style-wise I’d put it in the 3xxx..4xxx area. Claw keys, small-ish holes, hubcap keys, rather long, square striker plates, silver metalwork, a lot in common with other flutes from that era. The keys of the replacement part looked original, so maybe someone screwed the upper joint beyond repair, but was able to rescue the keys. Nice flute, worked very well. Workmanship of the upper middle joint was very good, and looked old. Wasn’t able to measure the upper bore since the owner needed it back quickly, so couldn’t compare it to originals. Wonder who did the repair, and when.
An orphan Patent Head was bought by Dave Ogden in October 2007 from a vendor in Glasgow.
In December 2007 Patrick Olwell bought two partial flutes being sold “from a large collection” from an Edinburgh-based vendor - the upper body only of #5657 (R&R 38 Southampton St.) and the upper and lower body joints only, missing blocks and keys on the lower, of #3541 (R&R 15 Piazza).
In November 2009 Ron Irving from Guernsey sold an orphan PH with an unusual domed crown with rose engine scale patterning all over, no royal crest, and a cut-away in the wood on the player’s side of the embouchure.
In February 2010 a George Rudall Willis fecit lacking its head/barrel was sold by a vendor in Wolverhampton. It had octagonal flat key flaps - squares with the corners nipped off - rather more so than those on the three Willis fecit Rudall flutes in Robert Bigio’s book.
In October 2010 the Olwells sold the head/barrel and upper body, in certificated original case, of #5605 (R&R 38 Southampton St.) The lower body and foot were missing.
In July 2011 Paul McGlinchey (Omagh) sold a plain, standard R&R head/barrel.
Yup. That’s the one I have. Plus the High Pitch Eb cylindrical Böhm body to which it absolutely does not belong! Even cracked as it is, it’s a good player.
In Doolin just now, preparing to drive up to Dublin. It’s been an eventuell week in Miltown I must say as it looks like thanks to a local musician, a possible mother lode of Rudall serial numbers has been detected. It will take time to exhume the documentation/lists, but they exist and contact has been established with the owner/inheritor who has agreed to give me access.
You already know, Thomas, but perhaps I should just make it known here that my “orphan” R&R head mentioned above has, somewhat fortuitously, been reunited with its body and #5203 is once more complete and fully accounted for.
Hi, are you still interested in Rudall Rose and Carte flute serial numbers? I have found one in my fathers house and not quite sure what to do with it. Thanks in advance.
Hi Cliff. Yes, we are always interested in re-emergent Rudall & Rose, Rudall Rose Carte or Rudall Carte flutes. It would be very helpful to know more about your flute in general. How many keys has it got? What metal are the keys and ferrule rings? What exactly do all of the stamps say? Is it in a case? How long is it? Perhaps you could post some photos?
(If you use Facebook, many of us here with this special interest are also active there in the Flute History Channel and you’d be very welcome to join that Group. It’s easier to post photos there!)
Hi, so this flute was destined for the dump. My brother was downsizing my fathers possessions and put a number of what he thought were odd bits of instruments in a bag, bag put under seat in car and got missed when he emptied car at dump.
I know nothing about flutes so forgive me about the description.. it is in 5 sections, 4 are marked Rudall Rose and Carte and Co London with a crown(?) and one piece also has 100 New Bond Street and serial number 6160.
The mouth piece has not markings but looks to be the same wood and have the same mounts. There are 3 open holes on the middle section and also 3 on the 4th section. It looks like one of the keys(?) is missing on the forth section, but on closer inspection there isn’t a tiny hole for the lever part of the key. Not sure what the metal is, but it does not look like proper silver. Hope this helps. Not sure how to do the photo bit but happy to send via email if you PM me.
Thanks for your help,
Cliff
Yes, if possible, or some other kind of forensic evidence. No, I think we’ll just have to trust people won’t we.
