A while back, I promised a comparison of my new Seery with my Dixon 3 piece since I think no one has done this yet. This may be a bit premature since I’ve only had the Seery 3 days while I’ve been playing the Dixon exclusively for 8 months or so, but here goes:
Sorry about the size of the MP3 link on the page, but I’m not technical enough to figure out how to make it smaller. It was recorded with the el cheapo microphone that came with my old computer and is recorded with the Audacity program.
Tom - you’ll have to try back in an hour or so. Apparently, geocities only allows so many file downloads per hour, and the folks ahead of you maxed them out…this is really annoying. I’m requesting webspace from my internet provider which gives me 10 MB free - hopefully they don’t have a maximum download amount per hour, too.
Anyway, sorry folks about the geocities hourly download maximum. I’ll post a note when I figure out how to build my own page on my ISP’s site later on.
Thats cool Eric, I will catch it sometime. Let me know how the web site goes. I have been thinking about using my 10gig free web space but I am to stupid to set one up-)
Thanks James! I just downloaded a free web design program (I work with Frontpage at work, but I’m clueless with HTML), but I think it would have taken me a few days to get a page up and running.
I’ve found there is a lot to be learned from the experience of recording these kinds of comparisons, as well as from listening to them. I’m happy to help!
I’m kinda torn here. I don’t know if I should post this but I think it should be said. I’m not trying to sound like an itrad snob or anything or even some expert cause lord knows I ain’t. And basically it boils down to what you want and what you are after. If you’re into this just for fun and don’t care how authentic you are, or what you do or don’t sound like and are enjoying yourself stop right here and read no further cause you’re enjoying your music and that’s what’s important. And if your into the flute to play traditional irish music like it should be played than listen up and rethink your methods. BTW I’m posting this in public not to put a spotlight on you but because other people could benefit from reading something like this as well. So remember that I’ve been there and I’m still there in many respects.
And remember that I’m not trying to be critical cause I’ve been there and was unaware of it before too. If you doubt it, you can listen to some of the stuff I’ve sent into clips and slips to confirm my sorry state. But since then I’ve undergone an enlightenment and I’ve realised and relearned many things that people told me but had to learn from myself.
First of all, get rid of sheet music, just get rid of it… I’ve heard the arguements and it just gets in the way. Sheet music is just horrible.
Secondly, that tune is a slip jig but what you played was not a slip jig. Tommy Potts, the man who wrote that tune, may very well be rolling over in his grave right now. The rhythm of that tune is way off. It sounds like machine gun bursts of notes instead of a slip jig. If you’d like to correct this and start developing proper traditional irish rhythm here is what I suggest. Get ahold of some itrad recordings and listen to em all the time to try and absorb all the naunces and aspects of the tradition. And when you’re ready to start learning tunes download the amazing slow downer (http://www.ronimusic.com/) and slow the tunes down, way down and learn from players you like. At this slow level you can start mimicing what the good players do and furthermore you can start establishing that good solid rhythm… it just beats into your head and you’ll get it. Without good solid rhythm you’re just wasting you time. Keep doing that and you’ll learn tunes properly and you’ll start to really notice the difference in your playing. And if you don’t like that method www.scoiltrad.com is another excellent starting point for learning to play traditional irish music. And with them, not only do you get to learn from top notch players, you also get critiqued by top notched players instead of hacks like me. So that’s the advice I have for you and you can call me an ass if you like… and I probably deserve it.
And since I’ve started… I might say a bit about your tone as well. You sound like you’re playing a low whistle instead of a flute. Flutes are way different and they need to be approached different. Those flutes sound exactly the same, not because they are the same but because they are being played in the same undeveloped manner. Developing a good embouchure takes time and lots and lots of work. I’ve had my hamilton for 9 months now I’m just starting, just starting to get ahold of it. Try messing around with getting different timbres on your flute. Try loosening and tightening. Try playing soft, and then harsh. Try playing quiet and then loud. Try playing along cds of people who have great tone and try to match it. You will come to realise that the flute should create a nice full sound with lots of character, instead of a low whistle that sounds very wooooooeee. And again I’ve been there and I am there. Just try to get some character and life into those flutes and you’ll love it.
So once again, sorry for overstepping my bounds and I realise I’m an ass who you keep quite and mind his own manners but if you take this seriously and get focused you might realize what you are doing and what you should be doing and then you might actually start playing traditional irish music.
And if you want to hear something of mine to tell me my problems as well cause I ain’t no expert here it is… http://www.geocities.com/thesocialistdragon/hareinthecorn.mp3 sorry it’s on whistle but it’s late at night and recording something on the hammy might upset some people.
Murphy, I don’t think you’re being an ass at all. Your two points of criticism (rhythm and tone) are spot on.
Jayhawk, please don’t get discouraged; Murphy’s comments are quite constructive, and even if it feels like getting a bucket of cold water in the face, in the end I think you’ll be happy for the feedback. Don’t forget, we have all been struggling with this stuff at one time or another; personally I still have plenty of bad embouchure days.
MurphyStout, good post - I can sense your hesitation in posting anything apparently critical but I think you got the balance right - helpful not critical.
I’m sure that everyone here knows they still have lots to learn. Constructive criticism from your peers is invaluable.
Jayhawk, good man for posting the tune. Try lengthening each of the notes to give the appearance of them “rolling” into each other. Experiment with taking breaths at different places in order to change the “shape” of the tune - make it sway a bit more.
Regarding tone - as has been said plenty on this forum, it’s going to take time - lots of time. You’re getting a good sound out of the flutes, getting a good tone is just a matter of refinement and practice. Get a couple of good slow airs under your belt - learn them until playing the tune is second nature, then use the tunes to practice your tone. If you have a tune that you don’t have to think about playing then you can concentrate on the tone.
I’ve got a Seery as my “kick about” flute (my wee boy can use it to hit me and I don’t panic - other than for my own safety!) - and it’s certainly not an easy flute to play. So to be at the stage you are after only 3 days shows that you are starting from a good position. It can take a fair bit of air so experiment with really pushing it hard and see what that does to the tone - if you can break your windows with a low D then you’ve got it
Cheers
Graham
Disclaimer - I’m certainly no expert but if I can pass on any good advice then my work here is done (I can’t find a tongue-in-cheek icon)
no real offense taken. I did mention exactly how long I had been playing, so I know I have a long way to go. I know I need to work on tone, and rhythm, etc…, but a large part of the thrust of your message seems to be unless you can play perfectly don’t post anything, and I really disagree with that. I’m more than willing to post my current status as a flute neophyte, warts and all, and criticism is fine. Personally, as a learner, I like hearing others who are less than perfect, and some of these folks I’ve known on the board who’ve been playing longer or shorter amounts of time allow for comparisons on tunes and help me see either where I need to get to or where I’ve been before. I wish more folks would step up and post a tune than do. BTW - I never stated I was experienced or to be emulated which is why I originally wrote:
“This may be a bit premature since I’ve only had the Seery 3 days while I’ve been playing the Dixon exclusively for 8 months or so, but here goes”.
And you probably won’t believe this, but I have thrown away the sheet music. You want to come on up to my session and hear that slip jig played that way by our session leader who has been playing it on flute for over 10 years? I learned it during the session and on a set of slowed down tunes the leader created. Personally, I think he plays too fast, but since I don’t have the tune on a CD anywhere by one of the greats I tend to go at the pace and rhythm of the session when I don’t know any better. Perhaps this is a view into the other side of ITM & shows how sessions and learning by ear can create less than optimal results .
Oh, and one more thing. I do appreciate criticisms, especially those that provide a stepping stone to improvement. So for example, Murphy’s posting a tune back is great (although Geocities won’t let me on the page so I don’t know if it’s an alternate name for what I know as the Butterfly). I think the best way to provide guidance would be for folks to post a sample of how the less than well played tune should be played…that way I’d really learn something.
Eric (Isolated in a less than ITM filled world)
Eric
I’ll offer to host a recording if anyone would like to submit one of this tune, within certain guidelines:
it’s got to be you playing the tune on flute, and it must not be accompanied by any other instrument, and it cannot be a copyrighted recording or a recording of another artist;
No effects or editing please;
The tune must be played in a performance fashion–for example, straight through, normal speed. Normally I would want 2 or 3 reps through but since the Butterfly gets sorta long and should not be played too fast, once through is fine.
I’ll need the tune in an MP3 format, preferably one meg or less in size. You can email it to jpeeples@txk.com.
Please provide the make and material of the flute used.
It will be posted in a different section of flutesite.com than Eric’s recording and the artist and instrument will be credited.
I am also willing to host other folks comparison recordings but please contact me before sending the file.
I didn’t pick that up from other posts and it certainly doesn’t reflect my own feelings. Top marks for posting, no question about that. If you can treat it as a kind of online lesson then I think that’s what some of the other posts were getting at. I think we can be pretty confident that everyone on here wants to pass on good advice to our fellow fluters if at all possible. All constructive criticism is good - drink it in!
I also agree with this - it’s great to hear how others are sounding. James’ site is great for clips and I know that he got a bit of a hard time on this very forum when he exposed himself to the ears of others.
Keep posting the sounds, I’m sure you’ll receive great feedback.
Graham
PS - On the sheet music question, I don’t have a great problem with it as a tool to learn tunes (picking up tunes at session speed is mighty hard work) but I do agree that you will learn a tune faster if it is in your head rather than on the page. I firmly believe that if you can sing it you can play it. It’s a great feeling when you try to play a tune that you know, but have never played, and your fingers just go into auto-pilot.
James - that’s really cool of you to do that! The best criticism/tip I received was on a Polka I posted many months ago (again played as learned during my session) - Michael Eskin emailed a clip of him playing the tune…which helped immensely with my rhythm on Irish polkas.
Anway, I hope others take advantage of your offer. The samples would be really helpful to those of us with more limited access to local ITM.
In the midst of all the feedback you’re getting I thought I’d offer my own as well–it’s probably worth exactly what you paid for it , but for whatever it’s worth…
First, you’ve got the foundation of what’s going to be a really solid, great tone. This will come in time and will start to solidify quicker than you think it will. Don’t try to make drastic all-at-once embouchure / blowing changes; rather, just keep on keeping on. The only hint I’d give it that a beginning player tends to blow softest on the low end and stronger for the higher notes to force the octave; an advanced flutist is exactly the reverse, using the most air on the lowest notes and using less air in the second octave, with the octave shift coming from the lips and angle of the air rather than just harder blowing. On Pratten flutes in particular it takes quite some time for the embouchure to “set,” so don’t get frustrated…and the Seery is not the easiest Pratten style flute to fill, but it is a great flute to build up your chops on.
You’ve got a good solid beat going, and that’s something that’s quite challenging for lots of folks. I think you’re playing a bit faster than I would on this slip jig, but since you learned the tune by ear from someone who plays it fast, you came by it honestly.
I will have a clip of my own available later today if you’d like to hear my take on this tune. It was one of the very first trad tunes I learned, back before I even had any real familiarity with what Irish trad is. And there’s a bit of a funny story to that: I learned it along with a CD recording, playing it on Boehm flute. Evidentally the CD track had been slowed a bit for effect as the tune was in D minor instead of E minor! Perhaps that’s one warning worth something about learning tunes by ear: if learning a tune from a recording, make sure you’re learning it in the key it actually gets played in.
And don’t let the criticisms get you down: I think in every case it was meant kindly, and with good intentions. I know how frustrating it is when you are posting a comparison and people seem to miss the point of what you are doing and critique your playing instead.
Eric you may have started something real good here. I haven`t had the gonads to record anything I play on the flute or whistle for that matter, but I have learned a great deal from the few posts in this thread. I know the stout man ment no harm in his criteque and in fact it was just what I needed to hear. I have only been playing this instrument from hell for 8 months but there is no turning back for me. I know the sound Murph is talking about and I chase it all over the place. If I have a half way good night on the old rosewood I wiil record a tune and be ready for the slings and arrows to come my way because I also am isolated in a world of rap and other offences. I want everybit of help I can get and I would like it to come from people I know and respect. So thanks my friend and smile we will all benefit from your post…
I think I may have been a little grumpier than I meant to be earlier in my pre-coffee post. Now that I’ve adequately caffinated, I just wanted to clarify a couple of things.
The comment to get away from sheet music just struck a nerve. I’ve followed all the hardcore ITM advice (no sheet music, join a session, learn by ear), and it’s obvious Murphy felt I was using sheet music…just felt like I couldn’t win there - do the right thing, get slapped on the wrist :roll: .
The other thing was Murphy’s comment that “I’ve been there and was unaware of it before too”- I think this IS a problem with how people review clips on this board. Just because I posted a clip (on request BTW, I plan to sell the Dixon to focus solely on the Seery, so the clip needed to be done soon or it wouldn’t have happened), or because anyone posted a clip, doesn’t mean they think they are really good. I highly doubt Murphy meant to be condescending, but how could anyone who cares about ITM hear my clip, hear a CD of Conal O’Grada, and not realize they have miles to go? Now, if I’d claimed I was the next Harry Bradley or John Creaven, well, that would be another story and would show I didn’t realize where I was!
I guess where I’m heading here is I like criticism, I learn from criticism (especially when accompanied by a clip), but criticism loaded with assumptions is bound to irk most folks, and I’m no different.
Well, I’m participating in James’ offer. I just emailed him my version of The Butterfly. I played it on a bamboo Olwell. I’m having a nasty spell of cottonmouth so I had some tone issues that were helped with gulps of water but my thirst still isn’t slaked. I learned this tune off of sheet music but had heard the tune before. I was playing it from memory on the recording.
A bit about my playing history: I started on a Dixon Low D duo about 16 months ago, picked up a Dixon 3-piece a couple months after that, and have had the bamboo Olwell for about 3 months. I’ve been listening to Irish, Scottish, and Breton music for about 12 years and have been playing Highland pipes for 10 years. For the record: I DO NOT claim to be an up-and-coming John McKenna or Matt Molloy.
To add my critique to Jayhawk’s recording, I felt the main issue was expression and rhythm. There’s tone stuff too but as has been already said, that will improve with practice. Maybe it’s because of how you learned it from your session leader, but I’m not hearing the compound rhythm or the swing a slip jig needs. Instead of 9/8 it was almost in 7/16 time where the rhythm would go short short l-o-n-g, short short l-o-n-g or 1 2 123, 1 2 123.
In the first 2 parts of this tune the rhythm for each phrase goes 1 and 2 and 3, 1 and 2 and 123. Remember Q&A phrasing. There are usually 4 phrases in each part of a tune and phrases are usually 2 bars. The first phrases is the question, the second is the answer. The third phrase asks the question again and the fourth usually answers it differently.
Expression is open to interpretation but slip jigs usually swagger along at a relaxed pace. If you use a metronome (I know, not very traditional) my recording is at about 120 bpm, yours at 132. Not a huge difference but enough to affect how the rhythm feels.
This is a great thread. What started out as a flute comparison has turned into a workshop. I eagerly await critiques on my recording.
(I can’t find a tongue-in-cheek icon)
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to the ears of others.