Nazi-Stuff and Freedom of Speach in Europe

Poststructural Pub
1

I heard news today which I found VERY annoying.

Germany tried to bring in a new law (petition) into the EU to get it forbidden by law European wide that using Nazi-signs like the swastiker (Hackenkreuz?) etc., Hitler-greeting etc. (these are forbidden in Germany for decades now incl. the denying of the holocaust and that it has ever happened). I am fine with these things being forbidden by law and I was always wondering how other countries can have a go and still call Germany Nazi-Germany while they have no laws forbidding the use of this. Well, today this law got dismissed because of three countries of the EU voting against it: England, Denmark and Hungary. I find the English reason ridiculous “because of freedom of speech”, I do not know the Danish or Hungarian reason but for the Danish saying yes would mean probably loosing a lot of money as Nazi-tum is a business there. This freedom of speech in other countries gives room for these elements, singing and publishing their hate music on records, publishing websites with their “ideology” and having groups of dressed up guys and probably girls running through woods playing WW2 and celebrating their heros. Very disturbing!
Brigitte

2

In my learning German, I’ve been looking for a copy of Mein Kampf, and I was rather astonished to see that on amazon.com’s website, there is a big warning on the book that says “CANNOT BE SHIPPED TO GERMANY”.

It seems odd to me that such a highly civilized industrial Western country would ban a book, no matter how horrible atrocities its author committed.

I don’t think any books are banned in the US…I could be wrong, though…

3

Let us not stop at the swaztika. Let us ban all symbols that have inspired murder, torture, hatred, ethnic-cleansing and the suffering of innocents – the cross, the crescent, the star of David.

And Yankee pinstripes.

4

I can only speak from my entrenched US viewpoint which is basically the same as Gonzo.

Where does it end? Who decides what is objectionable? I don’t know life in Germany so I couldn’t possibly relate on the same level. I would certainly vote against any such ban being proposed here in the US.

5

If some folks have there way, there will be soon. Right now, they can just check into your records to see what you are reading!

Tom

6

:frowning::(:(:(:(:frowning:

7

Cran,
I am sure there are books banned in the US and “Mein Kampf” I am sure still is around in Germany, just because there have been millions given out to our grandparents. But I find it strange that people can buy magazines with articles “saying that holocaust is an American lie” in the US or i.e. Denmark because of the publisher’s freedom of speach? So it is allowed to show the flag with the nazi-cross but no nipple? Very strange morals and ethics at times on our globe.

Brigitte

8

:laughing:

Amen to that.

There are restrictions on hate in the US. You can hate someone as long as they are of the same race, gender and sexual orientation. Anything else is bigotry and carries a steeper penalty.

9

There are sick and twisted ideologies in the U.S. whose rantings are allowed here under freedom of speech. Although I’m truly disgusted by Ku Klux Klan rallies, I’m afraid we’ve got to tolerate them if we want this freedom to continue for everyone. It’s the price we pay.

Susan

10

Where will it all end?

Next thing you know, they’ll want to ban the Confederate flag!

Oh, wait…

:frowning:

11

I know that Mein Kampf can be found in Germany…bannings of books and songs and like such almost never work. They’re unenforcable. If I wanted to drive into Germany with a copy under the car seat today, I probably could.

But I don’t think any books are banned in the US. That’s not too acceptable over here. We don’t like many books, but banning them just seems…dangerous to me.

That’s sad but true. I don’t think anybody should hate other people, but if they’re going to they should be allowed to have male and female, gay and straight, black and white equally.

12

Do you mean Germany tried to ban the use of these signs and actions IN Germany, or in the EU as a whole?

I can’t say I’ve ever (in my 38 years) seen a swastika on public display in England, not ever seen anyone give a Nazi salute. Trying to ban something that doesn’t happen anyway seems unnecessary.

Countries that were occupied during WW2 may still have strong feelings about having their internal policies dictated by other nations.

13

AFAIK, actually banning or censorship of contents is limited to national security issues,
and successful libel lawsuits.

Certain aspects of nuclear weapons are not allowed to be published, for example, and
if you successfully prosecute for libel, the printed work in question will be barred from
publication. (Of course, successfully suing for libel is very difficult in the U.S., we have
a much tougher standard than most of the world).

If the content is amended, the unrestricted part of the work can be published again.

There are also books that are ‘banned’ from schools and/or public libraries in various
parts of the country, but they are not ‘banned’ in the sense of being unprintable.

I would not be surprised if, at some point, an in-depth analysis of a terrorist organization
is banned for ‘national security reasons’ of containing information on how to make
terrorism work.

As for the Nazi thing, I have to concur with the freedom of speech argument. Germany’s
law in particular has been enforced in such a way as to make it difficult to seriously
examine the history and especially historical artifacts of the Nazi era. It is important to
be able to openly examine our history in order to understand it, and thereby avoid
repeating it.

While there are neo-nazi groups in the U.S., and they’re allowed to speak
freely, it turns out essentially no one takes them, or their revisionist history, seriously. And, of
course, they do less harm marching and talking than they would if they had to find another
outlet for their sentiments.

Looking at those two cases, if I were in the EU, I know which direction I’d prefer to emulate.

14

Sort of makes the whole EU concept a bit ironic, doesn’t it?

15

Brigitte: “most” of the US population knows there are some fringe groups that talk about some pretty outrageous things. Even though it may seem (because of the attention of the media) that these groups are actually believed, they aren’t.
“Banning” anything is subjective. In most cases in the US, what is considered “pornographic” is left up to the local courts to decide - in other words, trying to get it as close to the people as possible to determine what is offensive and what is not.

However, there is also (for better or not) a way that “facts” can be presented that skews feelings and sympathies for certain groups over another.

If you want to get into a US based controversy over a symbol, ask what people think about the Confederate Flag. To many, it’s a symbol of racisim. To others, it’s a symbol of fighting for protection of home from invaders. It has been “banned” in public display in many localities, but is also displayed on public property in others.

In order to really understand the principles behind free speech (as it concerns the US), you need to read some of the writings of Thomas Jefferson and the other framers of the Constitution. It probably wouldn’t be a bad idea if OUR law-makers did the same.

Missy

16

Brigitte

Maybe the Brits just didn’t want to make Prince Harry look worse than the rebellious and unthinking juvenile he doubtless is… :slight_smile:

Is there a danger that by banning something you imbue it with more power than otherwise? Certainly I think you increase its attractiveness to the immature and rebellious.

If the laws were accepted, could you be charged with an offence for clowning around with Heil Hitler salutes, taking the mickey out of Hitler and co.? This was pretty common practice when I was at school in England.

Would Charlie Chaplin’s film The Great Dictator be banned?

I can understand German sensitivity on the issue but I can also understand the other side of the argument too.

Steve

17

Wasn’t it Victoria who refused to ban lesbianism because she didn’t believe it existed?

18

I agree with Brigitte on this subjet. We must do all we can to stop the Neonazis as soon as possible. It begins with hate-songs, then they will be marching through the streets and attack people who don’t agree with their ideology - and this has happened already. Zero tolerance is the only acceptable answer.

Americans who say that the anti-Nazi laws limit the freedom of speech should compare this to the US reaction to islamic ideology (Guantanamo etc …).

19

Do you live under a rock? They’re most certainly believed. I live near the headquarters of a white supremacy group (whose name I don’t even mention), and I know many people who believe their views and their propaganda. I also know members of the KKK. I know at least one member of my family who does belong or used to belong to the KKK. They’re definately believed, and definately taken seriously.

20

Martin, have you been in the cellar in the last few weeks and not read all the nonsense about Prince Harry’s costumes?
:astonished:
Germany has this already forbidden for long, they wanted to get it forbidden European wide. Reason for that, as long as your country allows signs, flaggs, magazines, promoting this stuff, website hosting etc. they will have a forum to recrute their people. It tough to fight something when others turn a blind eye and it giving it the space. Open your eyes there are Nazis in England.

Brigitte