I ordered a Low D whistle from James Becker, it arrived yesterday.
I wanted to see if I could play one, and had read so much about piper’s grip that I wasn’t certain I’d be able to use it, so wanted to find out. While I can do a piper’s grip, it’s not natural feeling yet, but I didn’t expect it to be. I’m wondering though if it’s a problem to play with the finger pads on the holes like I do on the soprano D. The only thing I have to change is where I put my thumb on my bottom hand, it has to tuck to be behind the middle finger instead of behind the first. It also allows my pinky finger to reach, something I can’t do with the piper’s grip. I’m looking at it like I’m either bending my thumb in a new way to play it, or I’m bending my wrist to use the piper’s grip. Will either end up hurting me more than the other if I choose between them?
So I’m hoping some of the more experienced players can comment, I’ve included a photo to show what’s going on, tried to stick a measuring tape under my fingers as best I can. I don’t have large hands, but I do have a lot of flexibility in them, so maybe my span is bigger than I thought? Else the whistle just isn’t quite as unmanageable as I expected. https://i.imgur.com/oltLOaN.jpg
I can’t seem to resize the image to not have it too large for this forum, [url size=n] does not seem to work here, so linked instead, for those willing to look. Please don’t mind the fur, these whistles are very statically charged, and I have pets!
Edited the word comfortable, as it was not representing what I intended.
The whole purpose of pipers grip is to be MORE comfortable. It has the fingers at a relaxed natural posture rather than under strain.
And with piper’s grip the finger pads are still used, it’s just that different pads are used (each finger has three different pads on the underside, one on each joint).
So with pipers grip the middle-joint pad is used on the index and middle fingers, which line up with the end-joint pad on the ring finger. On low whistles both hands use the same grip.
Using the end-joint pad on all the fingers puts the hands under greater tension and strain, though at least one prominent player plays that way. But it’s no wonder that, given a choice between a comfortable and uncomfortable way to do something, the vast majority of good players choose the comfortable way.
Also pipers grip opens up the ability to play whistles lower than D. I have a Low C and a Bass A.
Since you found it uncomfortable I wonder if you were doing it correctly. Another possibility is that you went into it with the assumption that it wouldn’t work, and confirmed your preconception. Since I was a piper first, and all good pipers play that way, I went into it with the knowledge that it did work.
My fingers don’t feel strain in either position, but my wrist might after playing a while in the piper’s grip and my thumb might in the non piper’s grip, I don’t know. Wondering that is what led me to ask. If anything, my fingers feel pretty natural without the piper’s grip.
I suppose comfortable isn’t really the correct word if you’re thinking it means I’m hurting to do it, I use comfortable more as a synonym for familiar or natural, and you read that differently than I intended. It’s not hurting, my worry is that if I choose an unusual grip, it might. I will edit that.
In particular my wrist doesn’t feel as natural as not twisting it does, after all, it’s what I’m used to, and changing a grip is awkward, until you get used to it.
My fingers are fine either way, I can play the notes with both grips, just need to work on covering the holes better than I currently can, and moving my fingers with a larger spread than I am used to. And yes, I’m either putting the pads of my finger tips, or lower down on the fingers with either grip over the holes.
I just don’t know if turning my wrist to reach with the pipers grip is better than putting my thumb a little lower, and don’t want to end up cramping myself if I go with the more natural feeling grip. The wrist turn or the thumb down may both be equally cramping, for all I know. (and why I’m asking)
At this point, I could choose either and become more natural feeling with them given time, but am tempted to go with the grip that feels a little more familiar to me, mostly because my pinky can reach, but if there’s a risk of the position putting too much stress on my thumb I was hoping some here would let me know. If the consensus is that most players play with the thumb up and the wrist turned instead, that may be answer enough, then I the only issue I would have there is the pinky not reaching.
Does holding the whistle without the piper’s grip actually hurt you though? I would think that if you can reach without it hurting, then you’d be okay using either… what key do people normally have to change before it hurts them? I played only for a few hours today with the non piper’s grip, and so far no problem, I just don’t know years from now if my thumb will hate me or not.
Take a look at this video, especially what Jem says about position of the wrist. Maybe it’ll help. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEOx4IJyO_8
As you’ll see, he uses piper’s grip/hold on the lower hand but standard/fingertip hold on the top hand, which I personally wouldn’t particularly suggest, but that’s his preference.
Greenfire, bite the bullet and learn to play with the piper’s grip. Both hands. Before you know it, it will seem natural to you. You’ll be able to play a variety of low whistles in comfort.
Greenfire, persevere with the pipers grip it really doesn’t take long to master. I’m a very average musician who got to retirement age and thought I had better learn an instrument. A couple of years on the high D and I thought I had better try the low D. I had my doubts that I could manage the pipers grip but actually it was much easier than I imagined. Cover holes 3 and 6, make sure your thumbs are comfortable underneath and let the other fingers cover the remaining holes where they most comfortably fall. I have an MK pro that has grooves underneath the top hand I assume placed to give the thumb a non slip surface. My thumb is actually placed well away from the grooves. The point being that everyone is slightly different and if you let your fingers and thumbs relax you will find the sweet spot that is most comfortable for you. I think I am now a better low D player than a high D player (that doesn’t mean much mind you) although after a recent conversion to a Generation high D I may rethink that.
In summary just keep going on the pipers grip it won’t take long and you will be pleased you did.
Cheers
JTU
That’s interesting and does make me wonder exactly what you’re doing.
Because in the way it’s done on the pipes (both uilleann pipes and Highland pipes) and on Low Whistles, a properly done piper’s grip has a straight line running from each elbow to the fingertips, in other words forearms, wrists, hands, and fingers are all in relaxed comfortable alignment with no bending or twisting of anything to give tension or discomfort. That’s why people have played that way for centuries: it’s ergonomic, allowing for playing comfortably for long periods.
I did have a person come to me for pipe lessons a while back who was doing a very unusual thing: she was reaching with both arms too low, then twisting both wrists upwards, her hands coming at the chanter from below! In 45 years piping I can’t remember seeing anybody do that. It’s doing twice the work to create twice the discomfort.
With piper’s grip the grip comes from the elbow, the angle the hands come to the instrument dictated by the length of the arms and the length of the instrument.
Like this: nothing twisted, nothing out of alignment, fingers as relaxed as butter, direct from the elbows to the intrument, shoulders straight and relaxed, neck straight. On Low Whistle it would be the same, the only angle changing is the angles of the elbows according to how long the whistle is.
My form isn’t as good as his! But here you can see me playing a Low C and a Bass A and getting on fine with piper’s grip. I can’t imagine trying to play the 36 inch Low A any other way, or the Low D for that matter.
I’m going to check everyone’s suggestions here and consider carefully… but I thought about this last night, and really played with each grip… I’ve read that piper’s grip is supposed to improve ornaments, which is why I at first tried to learn soprano using it, but the whistle proved too tiny to make that really as easy as playing without it, though there are some pipers that use pipers grip on all whistle keys I’ve also read.
Is it possible that because my fingers are a lot shorter than fingers of people here, that using the normal grip doesn’t make me have to bunch them up at all, not causing the strain for me that it would for someone with longer fingers?
I made a video to show you what I’m talking about, where you can see that my fingers really stay pretty much the same with each grip, I even kept my middle finger as flat as possible, and show how little it moves to put it further up on the pad instead of closer to the joint where I’m used to. It’s such a slight movement I could do either, but to match how I play the soprano, I have it closer to the joint there too. https://streamable.com/qbmack
As for the wrist, it’s not radial or ulnar abduction I was talking about, it’s palmar flexion, the alignment when viewed from the front would still appear the same between the two.
Thankyou for the video, I don’t need to abduct my wrist at all on either grip, but his top hand looks really uncomfortable, if either my top or bottom hand had to curl like that I wouldn’t even be asking this question. But following his directions for doing the hold, putting my ring finger down and then dropping my fingers without abducting the wrist, I get my modified grip, not the piper’s grip. In order to get the piper’s grip, I don’t just drop my fingers down, I have to lay my fingers over, and it makes my wrist palmarflex.
This actually doesn’t give me piper’s grip though, it gives me the one I’m asking about.
Edited to avoid a triple post…
I’ve never been one to blindly do something simply because that’s how everyone else did it and anyone else is wrong. I’ve always preferred to see if there’s a good reason for me to do it that way, or if another way is better for me. I tend to ask for opinions of others to see what makes sense when I personalise someone’s reasoning.
If a piper’s grip is truly better on a low whistle, at which key does this become true? And what makes that true? If I learned on a low D and learned the piper’s grip but suddenly wanted to move up in keys, when does the recommendation to stop using piper’s grip come, or does it? Should I move to piper’s grip for every whistle then, if it’s not really a comfort thing but some other reason? Perhaps so, if it’s true that ornaments are better with it.
At what key do people recommend people change to piper’s grip then when they’re changing to lower keys? Is it not a matter more of, when it’s no longer comfortable to not change? I would think that every person who has different length arms and finger spans may require it sooner or later than others, not that this is something set in stone at a certain key, no? Would we not accommodate people who play differently than others because they have to, if so, why not accommodate for differences because one can?
I feel like I’m pissing people off for asking, and starting to feel like I’m supposed to just be a good girl, akin to “keep your mouth shut and do as you’re told”. Even though I asked in here because I do actually think you guys have experience that means you could answer my concerns about wrist and thumb, so now these other questions pop up, as to where the line is to be drawn, and what the line is composed of.
My question was at first, about the wrist and thumb angle… only to learn that the thumb behind the middle finger seems to be rather common amongst pipers, who use guess what, the piper’s grip. I’m no longer concerned about where my thumb goes to balance the whistle. I also after seeing that pancelticpiper dorisflexes when holding his whistles in piper’s grip, that my palmarflexing would likely not be a problem if his dorsiflexion isn’t, though I could just stick my elbows out to flatten the wrists if I must. So I no longer have concerns about hurting myself with either grip.
But must I use piper’s grip really? If so, at what whistle key must I switch? Because it can’t be a comfort thing if both grips are comfortable for me given I’m no longer concerned about thumb and wrist, and I’m still being told I must use piper’s grip due to the whistle being a Low D.
Sorry if it bugs you that I’m not just doing what you say without hearing better reasons for why you’re saying it. The advice would be great to follow if I had the issue you’re trying to protect me from, but since I don’t seem to, I need more reasons.
At this point I feel like I should just stop asking anyone for help and trying to figure it out on my own, given I feel like it’s irritating you when I ask.
I have yet to decide what grip I’m going to use until I get any answer other than, because YOU can’t do it comfortably, then I also must not be able to.
A while back I saw a video of a guy playing a low whistle with fingertip grip and he did very well (but I cant find it). so it is possible. That said I still wouldn’t recommend it unless you really cant get pipers grip to work. I personally love pipers grip and use it on everything above a suprano D. But personally I hate fingertip grip so take my opinion with a grain of salt haha.
Something that could be useful, you may be able to rotate your hand slightly so that your fingers cover the holes in a more natural position. In image c your hand is already rotated so that your fingers point slightly out, you can try rotating towards yourself so that your fingers are more perpendicul to the whistle. You might hate this more. I find rotating out helps when the last hole is farther away, and rotating in more when the holes are closer (like on altos). But a lot of this comes down to the whistle, your hands, ect. My hands are really big, so I can reach with any rotation, but some positions do feel more natural.
But I think as you stick with it and try it out you will like it more. I’ve been learning acoustic guitar, and I always finger picked. But now I’ve been trying to play with a pick, and I hate it. But I know that as I get more used to it I will hate it less, and it will be worth being able to do.
That’s Brian Finnegan, probably my fave whistler. I looked for who pancelticpiper was talking about when he mentioned it, was surprised to see it was him. Makes me wonder why he’s okay without the piper’s grip and everyone else isn’t. I’m tempted to just ignore advice when I see an expert also ignoring it.
If you see the video I shared, I feel like this is what I’m doing, in getting back to the modified grip. The photo from the back is not really as accurate an angle as seeing with the mirror and from above what I do to switch.
I dabbled with classical and acoustic guitar for years, love fingerpicking, didn’t like holding a pick. Have you tried using thumbpicks or fingertip picks? something like these?
Sorry for pic size, resizing appears to be broken on this forum.
Greenfire, no one is bothered with you asking your question. In my case, the direct answer I posted was drawn from my own experience, as I remember back going through the same learning process you are addressing now. So, remembering how I struggled and where I ended up, I offered my opinion, “just do it!”
In the end, do what works for you and brings you enjoyment.
Here is a Michael McGoldrick (AMAZING!) video that shows the technique I’m referring to and often seen with great whistle players:
Brian Finnigan is so amazingly musical and captivating! I love his music. Even my non-ITM-loving friends and family now recognize Brian’s recordings and love to listen to him. I watch his technique on the low D and wonder how in the world he manages the stretch with his fingertips. It seems he often performs with the G whistle which requires less finger stretch. Whatever the case, Brian makes it work in spectacular fashion.
Yes the video I was thinking of was Brian Finnegan haha. I have seen those thumb and fingertip pics before, I should totally try them out.
I’m glad he responded to your message. For most things in life theres not truly a one best way to do something. I like pipers grip. But if however you play gets results and isnt limiting to your play, then its not really a problem.
I watched your video on streamable. The spacing between the two middle (of 4) fingers on your bottom hand really caught my attention, in a warning-sort-of-way.
What I have found is that to play the tunes I love, I have to practice. And practice. And practice some more. In my “best” period of whistling, I was practicing easily an hour a day. The “warning-sort-of-way” I mentioned is a concern that if you practice a lot, that wide spacing could get painful.
Question: did you ever try covering the bottom hole with your pinky ? That finger-spacing would close right up.
I played with my pinky on Low-D for several years. I simply found it much less stressful on my hand. Also, I found the “training period” for the pinky passed within about a week. After that, it was automatic. A concert pianist once told me that, even though the pinky is small, the muscle that flexes it is remarkably strong !
Anyway, time is rather scarce for me these days, so if you’ve already dealt with pinky-play in previous posts, my apologies.
Best wishes !
trill
ps: I have a Becker Low-D. It’s one of almost a dozen I’ve played or purchased. Each maker has their “own voice”. Be sure to try as many as possible ! And, be on the lookout for “tours” when they happen !
There is one other method of playing without piper’s grip which I just remembered. Tony Hinnigan (known for his work on the “Braveheart” and “Titanic” soundtracks) uses his pinky finger for the lowest hole when he plays low D.
You can see it in this video at around the 3:00 minute mark: https://youtu.be/-nwg5hR324Y
Thus far, I’ve not developed a good grip for the low D. My initial thought was that maybe, just maybe, my hands were big enough that piper’s grip wouldn’t be needed, and I could grip it much as one does a high D whistle. 'Twas not to be (and I don’t exactly have small hands). I always get some air escaping when I’m trying to play an E or D note. All I need is more practice on it so’s I find just the right grip.
The little-finger-on-Hole 6 grip is super for getting an ergonomic and even spacing of the lower-hand fingers, especially on Low Whistles that have Hole 4 and Hole 5 rather closer together and a large gap between Hole 5 and Hole 6.
And it provides perhaps the best possible anchor-finger, keeping the lower-hand ring finger on the whistle, being that it’s no longer on a hole.
Yet another potential advantage is drilling a hole under the lower-hand ring finger for the note F natural! It’s sort of like the Bulgarian Kaval, having both F and F# available with no keywork and no crossfingering.
With such a whistle D Major would start
xxx xxxx D
xxx xxxo E
xxx xoxo F#
xxx ooxo G
and D minor would start
xxx xxxx D
xxx xxxo E
xxx xxoo F
xxx oxoo G
In other words, by simply switching the anchor finger from the ring finger to the middle finger converts the whistle from D Major to D minor.
I have always had what my family teases as “spock hands” so I don’t find that movement to be a stretch really. My finger just needs to learn where the hole is, but I imagine you need to learn new muscle memory when you switch to any key, no?
I did try the pinky, but that does move my middle finger to the middle pad… Both grips are perfectly fine with me, other than my pinky not reaching with pipers grip, something I have been really working on trying to keep down when I play my soprano, because I didn’t at first. So I could just go back to not putting it down…
The question of the angle of my wrist or thumb causing a medical issue, I no longer see as a reason for one grip over the other, but that had been the ONLY question between the two grips for me until hearing answers that pertain to the playing, instead of the span of my hand. (span was never a concern for me, surprisingly, because I was certain, as mentioned, that it would be. I can span it, it’s just not a span my fingers are blindly doing when feeling for a note, yet)
I’m not sure I LOVE the voice of the Becker, the lower octave is lovely, but the upper octave, sometimes comes out slightly wan if I’m not perfect with my breath control, I’m more used to just a pitch change, not a voice change there, so far. Another complaint I have, is the shallow beak, requiring me to hold it at more of a 60 degree angle than a 45 else the edge of the fipple block rests on my chin. It has the same depth as the soprano Becker (which has fast become my fave voiced soprano of all my current whistles, HIGHLY recommend!) despite having a much larger diameter. I would think, that the maker could preserve the same proportions of the soprano beak on the lower whistle, and still have it not create a much longer one. (this from someone who just places the beak to her lips too, I do not stick it into my mouth, as some do)
I also found a Reyburn whistle with an offset 3 and 6 hole. I can really see that being useful for someone who struggles, and if I were to find an issue with my thumb placement in future, would allow me to just move the thumb up. Interestingly, I don’t have that balance issue on the top of the whistle with the thumb, only on the bottom hand.
I would now guess it’s a dominant hand thing, rather than a short finger thing, as reversing hands, I absolutely prefer a pipers grip, and cannot easily reach that bottom note with the non dominant hand. Holding the whistle properly though, with my non dominant hand up top, it’s no question for that hand that I was probably never going to use pipers grip there.
Okay, it was your “bite the bullet” comment that I was taking wrong then, if you didn’t intend it to come across the way I took it, then I’ll let it go. But man did it get my back up!
I also feel like I need to say again, that I’m not struggling, with either grip, my concern was only for if I would hurt my thumb, or my wrist, using one over the other grip.
Right now I’m still not sure what I want to use, and am kind of thinking it’s going to be a matter of, do I want to do a ton of intricate slides and half notes on the whistle, a la Brian Finnegan or do I want to be super fast with ornaments a la Órlaith McAuliffe (my other fave whistler). Those are the only answers between the two grips I’ve been given other than “what’s more comfortable.” I’m not experienced enough to know which would serve my style better, I need to develop a style first.
I’ve said before that I’m mixed-handed; my right hand is dominant, and it is also the hand that goes on top when I play the whistle. That felt most natural from the very first time I picked up a whistle. In my opinion, hand placement should be determined in accordance with what feels natural (having designs on playing a recorder with baroque fingerings, and not wanting to have one custom-made, could be an exception).
My efforts with the low D have thus far not been successful. Part of that, I’m sure, is due to the cold weather that has set in. It could also be that the arthritis that afflicts my knees is creeping into my hands. I’ve decided to set the low D aside until the warmer months make their glorious return.
