Its always you

Poststructural Pub
1

My friends,

I haven’t posted or even stopped to read anything on this site for several months. The reason is because of the flame wars and the shallow comments made by so many. Granted, there are a few out there who continue to post to this site and respond with lovely words which are always appropriate.

A person who calls themselves “chance” posted a recent note about his or her being recognized as a whistle player. I thought that it is always wonderful when someone singles you out for your instrument or the type of music that you play. But as I read the responses to the post, I found what I was expecting. There were not a lot of responses that would tell “chance” that the experience was great and how fortunate it is to be recognized, but many (not all) of the responses turned their comments inward about themselves, and not one word about how great “chance’s” experience was.

Oh, I won’t be like some and just flame away and say “I’ve had it” and never return to this website, but I do not nor will I ever care about those who will no doubt be critical with me regarding this posting.

I expected better, but what I read confirmed that nothing has changed.

So for those who have more mirrors in their homes than necessary, be as critical as you like. It will only publically display your continued insensitivity toward others.

But for those who told “chance” that her being recognized or singled out was a very good thing, I applaud you. You are the exception here.

Bob Pegritz

2

Guess you didn’t get any this morning, eh Bob?

3

On 2002-06-30 09:04, Whistleworks wrote:
My friends,

I haven’t posted or even stopped to read anything on this site for several months. The reason is because of the flame wars and the shallow comments made by so many. Granted, there are a few out there who continue to post to this site and respond with lovely words which are always appropriate.

There were not a lot of responses that would tell “chance” that the experience was great and how fortunate it is to be recognized, but many (not all) of the responses turned their comments inward about themselves, and not one word about how great “chance’s” experience was.

I expected better, but what I read confirmed that nothing has changed.

But for those who told “chance” that her being recognized or singled out was a very good thing, I applaud you. You are the exception here.

Bob Pegritz

Bob,
Why did you not send Chance your own kind words?
I believe most of the people who answered did. Bringing back the subject to oneself is more a deep insecurity than an ego thing but I frankly did not see it here.
You sound like you were anxious to find fault. Sure you’ll find shallow posts on the board, but you’ll also find some real interesting ones and a lot of humour out there.
May be what you need is a vacation from this board. I know I do that regularly.

Otter “not-preaching-even-if-I-sound-like-I-do”

4

I understood people’s posts to chanse to be generously sharing their similar experiences, or experiences that chanse’s post reminded them of. I turn to this board frequently exactly because of this personal kind of sharing. I like to read about what other people feel about their own playing. I love this board and everyone on it–including the people who disagree with me or get angry and vent because no matter what people say, they are presenting their words for public scrutiny. Many times I have seen people start out angry and end up laughing at themselves on this board. To WhistleWorks, perhaps you have been unfairly criticized for talking about yourself–perhaps someone has squashed your attempts at reaching out to others by talking about yourself. Sometimes the only way we know how to validate someone else’s experience is to relate a similar one we’ve had. It’s like saying, hey, we are kindred spirits in this regard! WhistleWorks, you are telling us something, and it may be that you are telling us more than you intend to. You have given us something to think about and respond to. You have the choice of either finding a way to harmonize with us or telling me to go to h e double toothpicks. Either way, you are still communicating and revealing personal needs and values through words.
Cheers,
Lisa

5

Bob,
I agree with Lisa, but also wonder what are your personal reasons for starting this thread?
Personally, I find that the majority of people on this board are kind and considerate towards others, and that’s why I enjoy being a part of it, even if I do not post as often as many others.
You may define this as an extremely self centered post, but I think that the majority of people on this board are interested in me as I am interested in them. It appears from your poat that you too like to tell others about your personal feelings and opinions.
Jo.

6

On 2002-06-30 09:04, Whistleworks wrote:
There were not a lot of responses that would tell “chance” that the experience was great and how fortunate it is to be recognized, but many (not all) of the responses turned their comments inward about themselves, and not one word about how great “chance’s” experience was.
Bob Pegritz

If that was the gist of the replies, Bob, I really don’t think that they qualify as ‘flames’. As flaming was the crux of your message, I don’t agree that your example was a valid one. In fact, my own comment, now, is closer to a flame - but certainly not intended as one.

I feel that what you are concernned with, is the lack of encouragement you found in the responses to ‘chanse’. However, sometimes mutual experince sharing can work just as well.

You probably found the lack of objectivity annoying, but let’s face it, no one of us is blameless when it comes to wanting to be ‘heard’ and I think this board gives people (not least me) a opportunity to say things to an appreciative and knowledgable group that we would not get elsewhere. Is it any wonder that we don’t all take the chance (pardon the pun) to blow our own ‘whistles’ when we can!

Steve Power


[ This Message was edited by: StevePower on 2002-06-30 11:56 ]

7

On 2002-06-30 11:23, ysgwd wrote:
I understood people’s posts to chanse to be generously sharing their similar experiences, or experiences that chanse’s post reminded them of… Sometimes the only way we know how to validate someone else’s experience is to relate a similar one we’ve had. It’s like saying, hey, we are kindred spirits in this regard! Cheers,
Lisa

Well said, Lisa! I agree completely. You said it far better than I could have.

8

On 2002-06-30 09:04, Whistleworks wrote:
My friends,

I haven’t posted or even stopped to read anything on this site for several months. The reason is because of the flame wars and the shallow comments made by so many. Granted, there are a few out there who continue to post to this site and respond with lovely words which are always appropriate.

Oh, I won’t be like some and just flame away and say “I’ve had it” and never return to this website, but I do not nor will I ever care about those who will no doubt be critical with me regarding this posting.

Bob:

I’ll be brief:

  1. You make a valid point regarding a long-standing problem on the board;

  2. Sadly, you follow other serious players that have left the board in disgust over the past 3-4 years, more of which are not far behind you, I fear; and

  3. You will be sorely missed.

T

9

Are you reading the same board everyone else is? I don’t see any ‘flame wars’ here… do people disagree sometimes? Yes… even lose their tempers and post something snappish? Yes. This is human nature. But a flame war is something else altogether, and something I’ve never seen on this board. A flame war is when each reply between the correspondents becomes increasingly ad-hominem as tempers flare higher and higher, until, inevitably, one side accuses the other of being a Nazi (Godwin’s Law).

I have yet to see this happen. In fact, I find that Chiff & Fipplers are vastly more concerned about each other, and their online community, and preventing insurmountable rifts from developing between the participants. This very thread is a case in point, in fact… in many, if not most, online communities, your posting would be viciously attacked, and you would be told that if that was your attitude to go ahead and leave… among the replies repeatable in polite company. I’m not seeing that. I’m seeing people defending the community and saying that they’ll miss you: despite the fact that you just, effectively, insulted the entire membership of the board singly and collectively.

It has already been pointed out that the thread in question has nothing to do with the flames that you speak of (probably because they don’t exist… even That Awful Thread lead more to introspection, civilized debate, and eventually tension defusing humor, than it did to flames.) Anyway, it is the nature of group conversation that when experiences are discussed, people relate similar experiences. It’s a way of saying ‘yes, I know where your coming from’, not a way of saying ‘look at me! look at me!’ (okay, it may have some elements of both, but if anyone entirely without ego wouldn’t be posting anything here but deferential questions - and having -some- ego is a natural part of a human personality, it’s only when it is disproportionate that it becomes ‘egocentric’ and negative.).

Even if it were ‘wrong’ to relate one’s own stories when reminded of them by another’s post, I count 5 congratulations and 3 stories, and the rest of the posts not falling into either of these divisions that you’ve put the thread into. (Replies to replies, other kinds of comments, testing of signatures…)

In short, I don’t think there’s a problem with this board. I think that you’re reading into this board attitudes that aren’t there, and taking offense to insults that weren’t given. You wouldn’t be the first to do so - it’s a fundamental problem of the text medium, and the lack of a tone of voice - but I, for one, would prefer that you try to read the best possible interpretation into what you’re reading, instead of the worst.

I’m trying my hardest to do that with your post, which is why I’m replying as if I believe that you’re depressed and despondent over the ‘uncaring’ board, rather than as if you were deliberately attempting to insult and divide the board.

–Chris

10

For some real entertainment, check out Bob’s (whistleworks) comments in this thread: http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?topic=1412&forum=1

For the good stuff you gotta read past the his first post…

Loren

11

Bob, maybe you could try to direct your anger in a way that does not hurt and accuse other people.

Respectfully (and a bit saddened),
Erik

12

“I havent…”, “I thought…”, “I read…”, “I found…”, “I won’t…”, “I expected…”, “I applaud…”

It’s just all gotta be about you, don’t it, Bob? :laughing:

All jesting aside, people write from their own points of view. After all, personality disorders aside, it’s the only point of view most peoople have. What you seem to see as self serving and egoism, I see as “sharing”. I was myself tempted to share my own experience of being recognized (as far away as Atlanta!). Not to take away from Chanse’s limelight, but to share in something we might have in common. To let her know that I understood how exciting that kind of thing is. This forum would get rather dull if all we saw were threads that went something like this:

post: “Hey, I did xxx!”
reply: “Good for you!”

And that was it.

The thread itself is pretty small…had 14 replies when I started writing this. Of course, not all of them stayed on topic. However (by my opinion), of those that WERE on topic, 5 of them were directly positive toward Chanse in some way or another. Another was more or less indirectly supportive. That’s at least 6 posts out of the 9 I count that stayed topical. 66% back-slapping rate, by my calculations.

While it’s possible that some ego-driven folks could dismissively go “Hey, yeah, that kinda thing happens to me all the time. Big deal!”, I just went back and re-read that thread and didn’t notice anything of the kind. I did notice, however, that your own “Good for you” seemed to be missing from it. I’d say that if you only wrote to bitch about other people’s replies, rather than making a positive contribution, you’re more of a part of this ‘problem’ that you think exists here than anyone who posted in the thread under scrutiny.

Greg

13

This whole thread is sad -

Someone who admits that he’s down on the board comes in to complain about perceived selfishness of the board members and then flip us off and walk away again. And the purpose of this visit was???

I’m also concerned about the ‘attaboy’ with it’s comment about the ‘professional’ musicians who’ve somehow been driven away, presumably by the absence of sufficient fawning adulation vis-a-vis their skills or celebrity.

What really IS C&F? A community of people of all kinds with a shared interest in a simple musical instrument. A group of people who, as far as I can recall, have always been supportive of one another in adversity and generous in sharing their knowledge with those who have less. A safe place for a teen or an older beginner to ask a simple question without fear of ridicule or scorn. And a place where a parent need not fear for his child’s safety.

What we’re NOT is a gathering of groupies (well, OK, I’ll make an exception when it comes to Joanie Madden). We’re NOT a critics’ forum, or a place for discussing games or technology or romantic problems, although we’re pretty tolerant when someone steps over those lines. And, contrary to some comments we occasionally see here, we’re not a place where flames occur with more than the rarest of frequency. Trust me on this one - I’ve seen and played in far too many flame wars - the worst thing ever seen on C&F was no hotter than a baby’s heating pad.

I suppose many of us were happy to see that Chanse was high on being recognized, but I somehow fail to see how 1950+ of us failing to jump in with 'attaboy’s constitutes a put down for Chanse. And I certainly fail to see how people sharing their own similar experiences was their crass attempt to steal or bask in Chanse’s glory.

I post a lot less than in the past - not because I dislike the board or feel alienated but just because there are so many of us now that the old-timers’ voices aren’t needed as often. Frankly, even when I’m not interested in commenting, C&F is one of the very few web places I frequent because you don’t have to participate unless you want to.

OK, I’ll shut up now.

14

On 2002-06-30 12:07, Teri-K wrote:
Bob:

I’ll be brief:

  1. You make a valid point regarding a long-standing problem on the board;

  2. Sadly, you follow other serious players that have left the board in disgust over the past 3-4 years, more of which are not far behind you, I fear; and

  3. You will be sorely missed.

T

I think it’s obvious that Bob has serious issues, the least of which concern whistling or internet boards. Some people have tougher lives and larger problems than others, for reasons they can’t help, and I think maybe that’s the case here, with Bob.

What I don’t understand though, is what is the “valid point about a longstanding problem”? And why do you think serious players will soon be leaving the board in disgust?

Too many beginners? Too many non-serious players here? Maybe Dale can set up a “serious players only” board. Other than that, I think this board works well. If there are posters who make too many jokes (like me), post too many recipes, use the board as their social life, just stop reading those posts. I don’t see the problem, Teri.

As for yourself, I think you contribute great posts, and I love to listen to you play on Clips n Snips. I hope you stay, but I can’t imagine missing Bob. He doesn’t post enough to be missed when he stops.

15

Chuck,

Please explain how you translated

  1. Sadly, you follow other serious players that have left the board in disgust over the past 3-4 years, more of which are not far behind you, I fear;

into:

On 2002-06-30 15:32, Chuck_Clark wrote:
I’m also concerned about the ‘attaboy’ with it’s comment about the ‘professional’ musicians who’ve somehow been driven away, presumably by the absence of sufficient fawning adulation vis-a-vis their skills or celebrity.

16

I think there is a “life span” of interest by individuals in Forums like this. The character of those who came first will inevitably vary from an endless crop of new beginners who will likely re-visit similar old topics.It might very well reach a point that you have lost interest in tweaking Gens for the last time and start to look for other Forums.

I subscribe to IRTRAD hoping it will be more enlightening about particular regional styles and musically technical observations. But it really isn’t that different from here, just more fiddle-oriented. It’s similar to this Forum but with less friendly graphics and interface. But it has a cast of regulars who exchange ideas and deviate OT just like here. I would not criticize them if I found fault, even if I don’t fit in there, because this is all voluntary on my part.

I can imagine someone like myself continuing to look for more of these kind of developing interest topics. And the irony might be that my very posts drove someone else away at a particular point in time while I was undergoing my own evolution. Maybe I am part of the problem for the poster.

Sometimes we are like roomfuls of people in a party. At 6pm is one group and a few hours later, new people have arrived, some more or less interesting to the earliest guests. If you decide you don’t really like the latest batch, you can leave the party without dissing the company or feeling as though you have been cheated from something you liked. Only Dale and Rich truly have that right, in my opinion.

My particular axe to grind, to use that metaphor, is that some people can’t do anything in the way of changing without justifying or rationalizing their actions at someone else’s expense and expecting support from others.

If I don’t like this Forum anymore, I will leave without note. I don’t need to make a public statement of disgust to realize something is no longer in my interest.And I don’t need other old-timers to support me. And I don’t feel sorry for the “real” ones [originals] who have left in disgust. Anybody can start a new Forum, I suppose, and limit it by password to people they agree with.



[ This Message was edited by: The Weekenders on 2002-06-30 21:57 ]

17

Perhaps I dont follow the board all that closely, but I havent especialy seen anything in the way of “flaming”, character assualts, downright negativity and the like.

IT just doesnt seem to be on this particular board. Maybe I wasnt paying attention and missed something. Or maybe I am a newcomer.

Perhaps I am accustomed to a harder edge when it comes to message boards gone bad. If you really want to see how bad a place can get with flaming, name calling and negativity check out the old rec.music.makers.bagpipe board, a search on google groups for the words (expletive deleted) and Bagpipe will bring up pages upon pages of results.

[ This Message was edited by: Rockymtnpiper on 2002-06-30 18:30 ]

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On 2002-06-30 18:13, The Weekenders wrote:

If I don’t like this Forum anymore, I will leave without note. I don’t need to make a public statement of disgust to realize something is no longer in my interest.And I don’t need other old-timers to support me. And I don’t feel sorry for the “real” ones [originals] who have left in disgust. Anybody can start a new Forum, I suppose, and limit it by password to people they agree with.

You make some interesting points. A small number of us have been here since 1997. Maybe we’re gluttons for punishment, die hards, or that devoted to the music. Of course, there have been waves of newcomers and trends. But, what was most important was the advice of those who had been playing for a number of years. You shouldn’t feel sorry for those that have left, but feel sorry for those they leave behind. No forum can carry on with what it is designed for if the knowledge base keeps leaving.

My point is that the frustration level gets high for those who are interested in playing. Posts regarding technique, style, etc., scroll away in a matter of hours to be replaced by a series of off-topic posts. And those scroll away after a day or two to be replaced by a series of redundant questions which could be answered by: a)looking at the main page; or b) having the initiative to search the forum for the last 19th billion time it was asked. There are days that I’m not sure whether or not I’ve entered a free-for-all IRC chat room instead of a forum for whistle playing.

Of course, there is the issue of free speech and don’t read it if you don’t like it. I agree with both statements, to a degree. With freedom of speech comes a heavy burden. Just because you could say it, doesn’t mean should. There’s a responsibility to other’s that listen to your free speech. Also, in regards to don’t read it… when the forum fills with threads that are so self indulgent and off topic that no one wants to read them, then what’s the point? We (most) have an email link and there’s a private message option. Because we’re online as opposed to in person, there’s a loss of manners. If we were sitting around a table discussing the various topics as we do on the board, how long before many people would leave the gathering? We all want to share different stories, anecdotes, off-topic subjects, a good laugh; there’s nothing wrong with that and it should be stongly encouraged! What is wrong is the balance.

T

T

19

Sadly I can already see another “It’s Sickening.” Or rather, “It’s sickening III.”

Let’s put it this way. There aren’t any other boards quite like this one, and, let me point out what an excellent job that Dale and Rich are doing, but anyway, this is the only thing of its kind. So…if someone doesn’t want to post anymore, that’s fine, but it’s not like they can go and find another whistle message board.

Let me also point out something that stuck in my mind from the original “It’s sickening.” We’re a whole bunch of people w/ WOAH. There’s bound to be some kind of “struggle,” so how about we all cool it and enjoy ourselves. After all, that’s what we’re here for:)
-Ross

20

Hey,
Although I am new to this board, here through the messages I’ve read I’ve seen some of the most loving, caring people. They all replied to my “newbie” message warmly, and I felt very welcome. I also read the message posted by Chanse and it’s replies, and I saw none of the things which you described. The people here at C&F are a great bunch, and without them, well - this messageboard would suck. They’ve encouraged me even more to play my whistle. (although I think I’m spending more time here than practicing it…haha) If I hadn’t discovered this message board I can tell you right now my interest in the whistle would have dwindled, but they have encouraged me so so much! Thanks everyone, luv yah.
Always,
Angelbelle =)