Irish? Scottish? Let's just call it "Scirish"

Trad Irish Music
1

I am very familiar with a particular Irish Fair situated near the center of North America (shall we say). And when I say Irish Fair, what I really mean is that it is/has become an Irish/Scottish Fair. Featured at the fair (and advertised) are multiple GHB pipe bands, solo GHB competitions, and highland dance demonstrations. The only image on this fair’s website of a traditional instrument/ensemble is that of a Highland pipe band (the other musicians/groups shown on their site are pub bands). No mention or images of “Irish” traditional instruments on the fair’s website or in the press (even though there is a HUGE trad community where this fair is located). I should note that this area also has a Scottish Fair earlier in the summer (and you won’t find a stitch of anything Irish there btw). [I should note that I have never seen so many (non-pipe band) attendees in full highland gear before as I did at this fair this past weekend. Sure, you always get loads of people sporting the classic util-a-kilt-with-matching-Dropkick-Murphys-tshirt ensemble, but these Highland folk were all done up and all. I guess if you plunk down a grand on all that kit, you need to get it out of the closet more than once a year…]

So, my question to you is: is this inclusion of Scottish stuff pretty much the norm at North American “Irish” festivals? Is it the norm at all such festivals around the world?

…Or am I just being an Éir-ian snob?

tommykleen

2

I haven’t been to many Irish festivals, but I’ve seen websites for some. There tends to be some spillover. If you happen to be referring to the North Texas Irish Fest and the Texas Scottish Festival, then I know there is a lot of overlap in the people who put those two together. I have seen some Irish stuff at Scottish festivals too. For example, I saw Kevin Burke play at the Grandfather Mountain Highland Games. And sometimes I see Irish step dancers dancing while the celtic-rock bands play.

There is probably more Scottish in Ireland than the other way around, owing to the history. Consider, for instance, that there are several Irish bands (in addition to the Northern Irish bands) that compete at the highest level at the World Pipe Band Championship. Last year the St. Lawrence O’Toole Pipe Band, from Dublin, won the Championship. This year, Field Marshall Montgomery, from Lisburn, Northern Ireland, won. So that would explain some of what you see perhaps. If there was a solo competition, then you would probably have 50 or more soloists in traditional highland attire. You can generally pick out the piping/drumming competitors by the fact that they wear Glengary style hats and have thick hose (aka socks). They usually wear neckties, and frequently vests, no matter the temperature. Competitive piping is well organized and pipers are always looking for venues to add to the calendar, especially in places where there aren’t a lot of them (i.e., the North East).

Another factor: there is a lot of confusion in the USA regarding the differences between Irish, Scots-Irish (i.e., Northern Irish) and Scottish. Not to mention how many people think that Scots-Irish means Scottish + Irish.

3

Not true at all!

There’s a fair amount of vendor material at Scottish Fair catering to both, and the stage acts, particularly if they are comprised 100% of locals, are not so rigidly doctrinaire about their material as you would suggest. The audience is apparently for the most part indulgent, if not enthusiastic, about such things. Much of the time most of them honestly don’t seem to care. Some of this is due to outright ignorance of what is what, and why. They’re just there for the good times, the beer and furtive whiskys, and the pies.

That said, of course an Irish-style session would fit in there as much as would Reeboks on a cow. In that spirit, I have wondered at the appropriateness of Scottish music ensembles, or Northumbrian piping, etc., in certain tents at Irish Fair, too; but after so many years one begins to become philosophical about it.

Have you ever talked to members of the Brian Boru pipe band about their ethos as decidedly Irish pipers, and politics they’ve had to deal with in the past? Yet they represent at Scottish fair, too, saffron kilts and all. If you have developed an ear to it, the Scottish and Irish GHB piping styles ARE subtly different (and the repertory even more so), so to call their Irish Fair presence “Scottish” is, I think, a bit hasty. Nevertheless I think the confusion is completely understandable.

And then there is the issue of general kilt proliferation at Irish Fair, and yes, I am sympathetic to your sense of dismay at the cultural discombobulation - but it’s the fairgoers cooking that stew, isn’t it (add to that those detestable Utilikilts; I have no more eyes to pluck out). Again, opting to be philosophical about it, I have decided to take the phenomenon as a wish for a Pax Gadelica. It’s not the worst thing to hope for, all else considered.

Mind you, I’m not advocating cultural mishmashery, otherwise why designate “Irish” and “Scottish”? I think that the general tone and overall presentation of the acts and activities themselves are what really count; that’s the only thing there is really any control over.

4

The Boru band, if I recall correctly, offers a high amount of “Irish” content in their show.

I guess I could let most of this go, if only these fairs would acknowledge the local Irish traditional music community somehow, instead of shunning it like some [ironic use of phrase here] red-haired stepchild.[/ironic use of phrase here].

t

5

Yes, I think that’s mostly it. The fairs and promoters know their audience, and a large swath of the audience doesn’t know or care about the distinctions. Similar to the hodge-podge of Renaissance fairs, which overlap the same audience. Might as well throw in some Hobbits, too, and pirates, and Vikings in horned helmets.

I’ll never understand the “Irish” kilt thing. Who the hell foisted that travesty (pun intended) on us?

6

I am totally behind you on that. To be fair, in contrast to the past regime, it appears that local musicians are now finally getting some main-stage time, so I think the organisers are at least trying to put to rest the myth of the profit-oriented wisdom of keeping it to just big-name attractions and your cap-and-suspenders hooligan-style acts (from elsewhere, so of course it follows that they must be good). Last year’s disastrous fiasco with The Tossers drove the point home in spades, I think. I can’t offer an opinion on the quality - or traditionality - of what these newly presented local acts offer, as I’m usually over at the Session Tent among my fellow stepchildren, for some reason. :wink:

Part of the problem of the “redhaired stepchild” (what a status to have among what you thought would be your own!) lies in that real Trad is the sort of thing that the general public has an ambivalent attitude toward. Many people love it, and this is what we hope for, yet there are also so many that regard it as a strangeness and a chore. Those people are in love with the idea of some vague notion of “Irishness” as a party theme, but they’re not prepared to face the thing itself. Hence your Dropkick Murphys.

7

Not to sound prim, but I think the better question is: Why did we accept it?

Don’t ask me. It’s not my department. :wink:

8

This is probably a thread for folk who live in America, and I’ve never been to these Fairs, but possibly the Americans have accidentally got it right. It’s only in the last couple 100 years that Irish and Scottish cultures have grown apart, and at no fault of our own I would suggest, though things are changing for the better again. Pre clearances/famine the two cultures shared a lot. I don’t find the Irish wearing kilts any stranger than them playing our tunes (or versions of them) or vice versa.

9

What do you mean “we”, kemosabe? :wink: We ain’t the ones phoning our pledges to PBS when the kilted Celtoid Men show up, drumming for dollars.

Sometimes I wonder if the public think that Celtic = Kiltic …

10

It is; it’s all about our struggling with how we present such cultural inheritances as we have.

That’s an interesting point of view. How do you mean?

And this is readily available knowledge; yet it is not common knowledge, or at least people prefer to ignore it. A little such leavening could go a long way.

Also an interesting point of view, to me. But the tunes issue is definitely a bond. Playing them in the particular style is where I think it gets really interesting, and educational. That said, I think I’m so imprinted that I may never be really able to play flute in the Scottish fashion, but it’s not out of dislike or anything like that; it’s just habituation. :slight_smile:

Hey, YOU said “us” first, my fellow Yank. :wink:

You know they do.

11

Here’s something else to thing about..

When we go to a Scottish games (or Irish festival, or whatever), it’s primarily a social gathering. Sure, there’s an element of education, and a bit of entertainment. Maybe a little competition. But in the main it’s a social event. You go with your friends and family, catch up with others, and so forth. The neat part is that someone figured out how to collect a fee, so that gawkers can subsidize the fun. :thumbsup:

I go to Scottish games and play bagpipes in competition because it is part of /my/ culture. It’s not about connecting with my Scottish roots, it’s about connecting with my American friends. Yeah, we do some Scottish themed things, and even some actual Scottish things (like the piping contest), but mainly we do things we like to do. Some of the people in my pipe band have no Scottish heritage at all.

Culture and by extension tradition, are in constant flux. The Utilikilt is a great example. It is an American invention.

12

I have to confess that I’m still coming to terms with it as the manifestation of a derived concept. But continual exposure has made it easier. :slight_smile:

Did you know that the line of Utilikilt originally designed for construction work had stylish rivet/grommet thingies in front, right where one’s tender bits are? For those going “regimental”, a few hot sunny days were enough to impress upon the maker a very practical reason to rethink that aspect of the design. :laughing:

13

Nanohedron, by “accidentally getting it right” I mean that by chance probably rather than intent they’ve mixed up Scottish and Irish cultures in a way they were in the past. As for tune playing style, in my opinion the playing style and tunes here in the Hebrides are much closer to the style of Donegal than that of the east of Scotland. And that’s because of ties from the past - O’Neill’s/MacNeill’s, O’Donnell’s/MacDonalds etc. The tunes weren’t shared over the radio, they were shared one to one. You would reach Donegal from Skye a lot faster than you would ever reach Aberdeen from Skye for example.

14

I hate utilikilts and all that rubbish.

15

Right; thanks, bogman. :slight_smile:

I was at a (nominally) Irish session in the Twin Cities once when a fellow walked in with a US army digital camo print Utilikilt (these had proliferated among US troops in the Mideast, BTW, so those back in civilian life wear them as a mark of their service). The lady next to me made a snide comment about how THAT wasn’t very traditional, and I assured her that the print was indeed in fact an hereditary pattern of Clan Destine. The groans were most satisfying. :wink:

16

Think it’s explained by what follows. Or, as argued by the sleeve notes to Carnlough Bay (aka The Road to Dundee) on Battlefield Bands’s 1986 On The Rise album:

On which note (heading off at a slight tangent to the OP) I must say I sometimes struggle with the overbearing ‘Irishness’ of C&F (folks apologising for discussing other stuff as if ‘ITM’ was the only true trad. etc.) when there’s actually remarkably little set down to justify that…

So see the Chiff & Fipple home page? It says:

And see the forums? Loads of them, with exactly four mentioning ‘Irish’ in their titles and/or descriptions:

  • Flute Forum
    The Chiff & Fipple Irish Flute on-line community. Sideblown for your protection.
  • Uilleann Pipe forum
    A forum about Uilleann (Irish) pipes and the surly people who play them.
  • Irish Traditional Music Forum
    For all instruments – please read F.A.Q. before posting.
  • Irish Language
    Tá Failte Romhat! For all conversation about the Irish language. Scots Gaelic discussion welcome.

So please don’t get me wrong because I’m neither having a go at Irish music (which I love both for itself and as the flip side to our Scottish ‘coin’) nor saying ‘Irish’ Fairs should be a celebration of all things Scottish (which they clearly shouldn’t), but just (well, I dunno just what, but it’s been bothering me for a while and this seemed like a half chance to bring it up)…

17

But the people we’re talking about are not wearing kilts as a visual shout-out to the cross-pollination of Irish and Scottish traditions. They’re flogging them as an icon of the American perception of typical contemporary Irishness, as a modern statement of tradition on par with shamrocks and leprechauns. And as a sign that the punk or rock or Celtoid music they’re playing must be Irish, because bold, angry or rebellious Irish yobs wear kilts, of course. Or something like that.

Very true, it’s only social entertainment, not nuanced historical education. But I’m not sure that these groups making a muddle of things for low-information American audiences does anyone any great service.

18

Yes MTGuru, that’s why I mentioned earlier that this thread was possibly more for folk living in America. I don’t know about these Fairs and can’t really comment, though I did play at a big Irish festival over there - it was nice and friendly but I found the whole thing a bit odd if I was being honest. - Not a criticism, I understand people wanting to be close to their perceived roots.

19

To be honest, I think it was the Riverdance craze (yes, it’s true) that got the whole Irish-directed thing going in the first place here at C&F. Add to that the near-total dieoff of the music that was rescued by the skin of its teeth in the 1970s revival, further include the great numbers of Americans who lay claim to Irish heritage who have seen how it can fade away but want to retain something of it, and a certain amount of focus arising from that sense of embattlement tends to dig in very strongly.

There are those who would make a political issue of it (present company excepted, I am happy to say :slight_smile: ), but I think it’s misdirected, unhelpful, and contrary to the intended ethos conceived for C&F from the beginning. Nevertheless, the Irish thing will probably retain its status here as (so I want to think of it) first among equals. It’s how this whole website all started, after all. :slight_smile:

20

I do remember the stylish rivets, but I was not aware they went through to the inside. Yikes!