Prompted by Ricks comments on regulators I got to thinking that if people ordered their sets in a systematic way,ie practice ,drones,regs (when ready and if ye can play the rest of the set and if ye want them)Maybe one regulator at a time…That way instead of the makers time being loaded with orders for full sets from people who are more interested in running afore they can walk, distribution of sets would be quicker and more even handed.Plus ye wouldna have the daftness of having statements like can ye play the regs after having them for 2 years!!If ye have a set of regs on your set for two years and ye havna played them ye are clearly not ready for them,so let someone who is !!
Slan go foill 
Doing it in one go is a lot more efficient time wise, from the pipemaker’s point of view. No sending pipes across the world, no extra dealing with customers, no matching re balancing of things fitted earlier, all these things which are really just a waste of time.
Au Contraire dear boy..I am talking about the ridiculous waiting lists now in being, tell any other musician that you are on a waiting list for13 years and they would think ye are mad!!
No, I am saying get the set you are ready for,that way many more beginners can be catered for from excellent makers.I never had any problems getting regulators added to my set when I was ready to play them.It stands to reason that a half set will be ready sooner than a full set,so why have a full set straight away thus causing bottlenecks of a mere 13 years.
I think Rowesome had it about right when he was making, when he wouldna make regulators for anyone unless they had been playing for 7 years.This helped to solve the supply and demand problem and also ensured that the prospective buyer was ready.
Just aside I have known of two uilleann pipe owners with full sets
One just played the regulators and drones(not the chanter..because he hadn’t mastered it)
The other (a pipemaker) had three regulators on his set ,with keys,but they hadna been bored out so were just blank
Slan go foill
Nobody is suggesting that you should start on the full set, although it is wellknown Johnny Doran started on the full set, straight into the regs and he seemed to have ended pretty much with the regs as an integrated part of his music while when I hear Leo Rowsome the reg playing seems fairly much disconnected from whatever else is going on. But not making too much of a point out of that[it’s fairly easy to come up with one off examples that can make a point in any chosen direction], it is not a great idea getting the regs in instalments. Personally I went that way on my first set and it was not succesful for several reasons. It is from the pipemaker’s point of view much easier to stick the whole thing together balance thout the various bits, align the keys etc rather than adding bits on every time and that was my point, it saves time.
Some of the finest playing I have heard recently was Gay McK playing a Kenna set with only one regulator.I say only but in no way is that meant to be derogotory, many of the early sets had one regulator.A sweet sounding Hussey set 1820 here in Glasgow, has just the one reg.
I have 3 regs on my Bb but I take the Bass off and much prefer playing 3/4.
It has been said before and I concur that the full set is an overdeveloped instrument.
I am certainly not suggesting that one starts off with a full set,but it seems to be the fashion in the past few years (particularly with Americans)to obtain a full set as soon as is possible. And that, I suspect is, why there is a logjam from makers.I’ve seen complete beginners with the full shebang..
Anyways Peter we can agree to disagree. .
Slan 
I suppose it depends on the pipemaker and how his work gets booked.
Childress is currently 24 months for a practice set and 25 for a full set. Unless it has to do with finances, why wait to get back on the books for the upgrade?
Bagpipeworks is currently advertising 6 months for a practice set and 18 months for a full set. One might consider sending the bag back for the upgrade as this seems the general path to follow.
I agree, you all make good points. But I would feel severely limited if I didn’t have a full set. After all, how else would I “honk” while carrying my pipes though a crowd to the bar on St. Paddy’s Day? There’s nothing quite like still being strapped in, pumping up the bag a bit, and hitting the G/B on the regs along with the open high D on the chanter, and clearing a path! Kinda sounds like a locamotive movin through! 
We can but, and that happened before, we may not be so far apart at all.
I do agree some people are a bit over-anxious to get the whole thing, ‘and can you do me an extended bass reg and maybe a double bass too, they look really neat in the old photographs and can I put the order for my B set in when I get this one?’ without any outlook on their piping developing into anything at all. But maybe that’s a slightly different issue altogether.
It’s a bit of a stylistic issue too, if you listen too an earlier generation playing, the Rowsome influenced say, you’ll notice the use of the bass reg was far more than it is in present day styleintegrated [I was thinking of the likes of Willie Clancy, Tommy Kearney etc. but it was actually having a tune with Tommy McCarthy that made me realise it some years ago], a three quarter set would do most of today’s pipers. My objection to this approach of adding one at a time was more practical.
And to be honest, if you want to sound like a locomotive, join a model railway society.
I have a good year of piping under my belt now playing a half set and can afford to order the regs…Paddy Keenan says get them if ya can afford them so they are there and you can start playing around with them. My Pipemaker Preshaw, says wait until youve mastered the chanter ie you’ll lose focus…be overwhelmed? Since I live in NJ I was thinking that maybe a more local maker such as Galleghar NY could make the regs for a Preshaw half set…I know others have mixed sets with success. I am very pleased with Preshaw but Would it be wise to venture this way? Should I get full set ordered? and then sell half set? Should I get full set in D , I mean D to me is for playing with others and regs to me don’t fit into the session mode…I could be wrong here? So maybe get a full C or Bb for solo playing…but then theres 7k vs 3k? I have a narrow bor d chanter which I could up to the full set? I have all these qyestions and you folks have all the answers?? I hope?? thanks
ps. Paddy will be at my home on Tues for a session if anyone wants some techno info, pass it on and I’ll see what I can do…I know I’m bragging but heck you would to…
Hey all;
I’m still pretty much a beginner (okay, I’m a raw recruit in this world of intense musical expectations) and I’m perfectly happy with my practice set. It’s enough for me to get the chanter to play properly in tune with itself while playing at any reasonable speed (I know speed isn’t essential but it is fun) and the only thing I would like to add to this right now are the drones. I love the sound of a slow air above the drones, playing airs with just the chanter sometimes lacks a certain something to me. I’ll be getting that in about six months time and that’s going to be more than enough for me for quite some time.
I play in a traditional West African band (percussion pure and clean) and it’s hard enough just to understand the subtleties of playing a djembe (there’s years of learning to do just to play three notes properly).
Compare that to the complexities of the uilleann pipes and there’s a whole other world of learning to do. I know for sure I’m not hearing everything that’s going on with solo piping; I’d frankly be overwhelmed with a full set right now. Too much subtlety for my rock 'n roll trained ears to hear.
I think most of us in North America (and I’m probably going to be slagged for this) just aren’t trained to hear the complex interplay of the pipes, the way we’ve been taught to learn is somehow more blunt than what the UPs require. I’ve been listening to lots of CDs and even the simplest tunes will amaze me on relistening.
Perhaps it’s just my own shortcomings, but I’ve spoken with quite a few people about drumming and we pretty much universally agree that there’s so much ground to cover prior to being able to effectively play that music, and this music is, in my opinion, every bit as complex, except with UPs there’s only one person, and in a percussion group there’s sometimes ten or more. Therefore, UPs are much much more complex to play.
I’ve gone on long enough. I love the music and I want to be good enough to raise a smile or a tear when I play. Years of practice from now, perhaps I’ll have wished I’d started with a full set, but right now there’s more than enough to learn, and hear, and fold into myself before I go on to more complex things.
Yours in verbosity,
Mark
Gnaw, that might take too much training. Sounds rail fine, but I’ll have to take your word for it. Give them all my best regards though.
I’ve been playing a year on my practice set, which has served me well although not being of best quality. I think if I’d got anthing more I would be finding it difficult to cope, despite my ear being good (I’m an accomplished whistle player and classical violinist and violist). I’m now thinking about putting in an order for a half set, which would mean by the time it’s ready in a few years I should be able to manage the chanter well (and might even be able to pay for it!).
So I have to say, from the point of view of the beginner piper (I o consider myself a beginner still) I agree with Uillium. Later in life you can always work on really integrating the regs into your playing, if you decide that’s what you want. Nothing’s impossible (or, even if it is, I’m going to have the best go at it I can).
Jo.
several things from my own experience,
first let me start by saying that I started on a practice set and later upgraded to a full set.
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it is frequently more convenient and expedient to order a full set straight off. It may be extremely unwise, especially if you have no prior uilleann experience - how do you know you will stick with it?
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the “stage” development of learning to play reminds me of the “back to basics” plan of teaching literacy. now, I’m an English teacher, and I know that during the 1980s there was a popular movement to teach reading in stages, starting with phonics. The problem with that is that there is something inherently unnatural and abstract about that method for learning, and much more success was had with “whole language” and “invented spellings.” In short, is the most effective way to learn to swim to practice each movement by itself until mastered, or to be thrown into the pool?
a music ed major friend of mine says that she refuses to teach her students songs in pieces (ie - first get all the notes right, then get all the timing right, then get it up to speed), but it must be practiced as a whole to avoid bad habits forming with the piece (ie - having to relearn bag pressure once other things are added).
Even though I didn’t learn that way, I see definite merit to starting with a full set and learning the instrument as a whole. After all, do we make flautists start with piccolos until they’re ready for more air pressure, or trumpeters start with bugles until they learn ambrosure?
The problem with waiting lists has little to do with people ordering full sets straight off. It exists due to 1) lack of reliable affordable student models, 2) mass production, 3) standardization (which is the reason for the other two)
but that’s just my assessment 
Oh, boy! Can I pipe in?
I think there’s benefit in going both routes. Who in NAmerica has access to full sets and half sets by different makers to know what to order and from whom? Not many, I would think. I have done the practise set and half set and now a full set. Only now can I appreciate the advice to start with a practise set, but until I had the opportunity to diddle with all that other stuff (that I’m really not ready for) did any of the sage advice mean anything to me.
One issue I didn’t see mentioned is that when a pipe maker builds a full set, he balances all the parts to each other. Makers don’t stand still, so the design of the chanter or drones they build today may not match what they are doing two or three years down the road. Quite often you will have to send them your whole set so they can add on successfully to what ever you have today.
Personally, I am all for the whole set route if you can afford it. Even if I’m not ready for regs for another few years, I’ll have had that much more time to fool around with them.
djm
I can see many positive outcomes from long waiting lists.
- Resale prices stay up (more money to upgrade with)
- UP makers gain stability from a known amount of work ahead
- UP makers may take on apprentices (eventually increasing the number of makers)
- UP makers may be motivated to make their process more efficient
- More sets will become available on resale market (no wait time)
- More pipers
- More teachers (in Utah)
- More tutor resources
I have a practice set. If I could have swung a full set to begin with, I would have. The regs and drones would probably be off for most of the first two years, but at least I would be comfortable with the positioning of the whole rig. I think anyone who takes on a bizaare instrument like the UP’s is probably a obsessive compulsive masochist in the first place. The wait times and the whole reed thing is ample proof. Still practicing, whack me in the head with a hammer, it doesn’t get any better than this. 
Let’s back up a bit.
The original comment (from Uilliam) was to go back to the original concept of piping where you add to your pipes as your skills develop. This way, there will be more practice sets made and less half sets and even fewer full sets made.
Since there are fewer pipes being made than the demand, prices for used instruments (bad ones included) will remain high.
If long waiting lists persist (and I feel they will) more people will be ordering full sets on speculation (or self imposed pressure) they will want them when the pipes are done thereby saving the additional wait to upgrade.
The ratio of chanters to regulators will drop as more full sets get ordered. When time frames get beyond 6-7 years for full sets some pipers may resort to others ways to get their sets completed sooner. A way around this MAY be to order a chanter (only) from (for lack of a better term) a primary maker and drones and regulators from a secondary maker.
Who here is playing a mis-matched set… and satisfied with the results??
“Nothing useless can be truly beautiful.”
-William Morris
Before going on here, let me just say that I don`t own a full set. I play a half set and though I am planning on getting the regs as soon as time and money allow, my comments are not based on personal experience in reg. playing, etc.
Ive found Ulliam and Peters comments on this subject pretty intriguing. Needless to say, there are certainly more than a few people out there who get full sets without really knowing what theyre getting into. I think a lot of it has to do with a self-conscious desire to have a "complete" instrument, not just something thats half-way there. The question of whether you really “need” the regs or are ready for them doesn`t seem to be given enough thought.
Of course, there are definitely advantages to just getting the whole damn thing straight away: having a set with all the parts made from the same wood, etc., intuitively seems better than having a set put together over time from materials that may or may not all be of equal quality. Getting back to the regs, though, when are you ready for them and do you need them?
Theres no answer, really. Some people might play for a couple of years, get regs, and go shooting through "Rakish Paddy" expertly. Others might get regs after years and years of diligent practice on the chanter and drones and never get it. Still others who are fantastic chanter players blunder away on the regs seemingly at random with little concept of rhythm or chord changes/ mode (I will name no names, but Ive heard more than a few recorded examples of the latter).
I agree with Ulliam that perhaps the full set is a little over-developed. More often than not in trad. music, too little is better than too much and the sound of three (or more) regs being struck all at once seems a little too grandiose and overpowering for the music being played. Sets of four or five-reg pipes take this compensatory grandiosity to a laughable Freudian extreme. That contrabass regulator may look pretty, but how often do you use it? (Hence the above Morris quote).
Hmm, I don’t really think this analogy holds water. Pipes are different beasts from other instruments. By this reasoning, Highland pipers should ditch their practice chanters and just start learning on the full highland pipes. I think we can all agree no one wants to hear that!
I don’t like to jump into things before I’m ready, so my attitude about upgrading is, don’t do it unless you feel your music is missing an essential element. Look at Eamonn Dillon, he’s been playing around 14 years or so, is a professional piper now, and he’s still only playing a half-set.
J.
I see little positive here to be honest.
There is no advantage in keeping the prices up. Pipemakers have waitinglistst and plenty of work at the moment and the pipemakers I know actually are trying to get rid of a certain class of customers. And as they have enough work and people paying crazy money for the instrument, there is no reason to change the production process. More pipers is not necessarily a good thing, it would be if they were good pipers, the main demand and the greatest pressure on the market comes from a direction that will NOT yield many great pipers.
In fact I could name you several people who are hoarding two, three sets of pipes at prices up to three times the price the pipemaker would sell them new, who will never ever get beyond the lower intermediate stage. Still they put an immense pressure on the market and make you guys loose any perspective [at least that’s what I think when I hear people talk about 1500 as a reasonable price for a Rowsome chanter and similar situations].
In a world where pipes are readily available, that would be no problem but by the end of the day tomorrow’s players are young Irish kids, and don’t kid yourself by thinking otherwise. It is virtually impossible for talented young kids here to get a decent set of pipes when they need them. I have one very promising young man coming to me and it was impossible to find anything for him he could afford, by the end I managed to fit him up with a Kennedy chanter and a Wooff bag and bellows, at a total 500 a good deal, but one he never could have pulled off himself.
He is well ready for drones but being a fifteen year old sitting the leaving cert getting them is a plain and simple financial impossibility. So I have talked him past 13 years of waitinglist so he’ll get his flat set by the time he gets through university. An absurd situation as it is but he would not at all have at access to the pipes at all beyond his NPU practice set on loan [for 6 months]If I hadn’t helped him out.
Another ten year old here has been waiting for a NPU practice set for over a year, any idea how that works on the motivation at that age?. He got his practice set last week and I may be able to start him before the WIllie week but in an ideal situation he would have been playing for over a year and had gone to the intermediate class instead of the beginners which he now will be facing.
So, while I think from the pipemaker’s point of view it is not practical to make bits and pieces and add ons and all that, I also think beginning pipers out there should realise what the situation actually is with these waiting lists beause by the end of the day the waiting lists are depriving tomorrow’s pipers of decent instruments and that may be a consideration you want to take on board if you are serious about piping as a continuing tradition.
Important points, Peter.
As an aside, NPU have problems both in finding the practice sets for loaning, and in affording to buy them.
Would a star pupil be served adequately by a practice set of resin? There is the potential for production of greater numbers of practice sets in this way. Seery and Rogge work with this material and produce reasonable stuff…other makers could also do this.
If I want to bypass part of a maker’s queue, do I need to turn up and play like the divil so that the maker will decide I deserve a decent set?
A full set probably isn’t really needed by the majority of players, but each set will hopefully live on for generations, and so like any craftsman, the pipemaker will have a desire for his instrument to be as good as it can be.
When I ordered a 3/4 set, the maker was very keen for me to get a full set. So I got a full set but don’t often use the 3rd reg. Not good value for money? Many would say that the resale value will be greater if the set is complete. And they’re probably right.
Boyd