bad buisness practice?

Uilleann Pipes
1

I have been having a terrible last few weeks, and need to vent a little here, and also ask some questions.

I placed an order for a set of pipes (3/4) last August 28. I was told by the maker (name withheld) that I should expect the set by February.

February came and went, and no pipes showed up. I emailed the maker, he told me they would be done by the end of March.

March came and went, and no pipes showed up. I emailed the maker, he appoligized, and assured me I’d have them by the end of May at the latest.

May came and went, and no pipes showed up… I think you can see the pattern… I emailed him, he told me drones and all but the chanter and regs were completed. I asked him for pictures, he declined…

Near the middle of June, I emailed him again. This time, he told me the half set part was finished, I should send him the rest of the money needed for just the half set, and he’d send it off by the end of the week (7/28-30).

Soon after this, he emailed my back, told me he still had to reed the chanter, and wouldn’t be done for another few weeks. And still no idea whatsoever when the regs may or may not be complete…

I want to know if this lack of comminication is normal. I understand unforseeable problems arise in almost every buisness and project, but is it wrong of me to think that it is the responsibility of the supplier to comminicate extentions of lead times to the customer, instead of the customer’s job to beat this information out of him? Especially when there is a substantial deposite already paid?

I don’t want to think there is anything shady going on, but the maker’s story is almost always different from email to email.

Should I be worried? Do I have the right ot be upset with this? Should the maker be better at comminicating? How do other makers handle this? Personal expierences? I make and repair violins and string instruments. I work very hard to set reasonable lead times, and then to meet them on or ahead of schedule. Maybe its more common than I think to not communicate with the customer, and leave them hanging, and tell several different stories, but it seems really bad buisness practice to me.

In closing, :swear: :swear: :swear: :swear: :swear: :swear:

I’m pulling my hair out

2

sadly, many pipers have these sort of experiences. It would be nice maybe if there were a guild of pipemakers, all of whom adhered to good practice and decent quality instruments. Anyone failing this would be exculded from the guild and us pipers and wannabe pipers could go to reputable makers.

Of course such a guild could be open to abuses, and good makers being left out due to personal politics, or included due to fear of reprisals. Still what do you think?

3

I was concerned as soon as you listed the initial dates. A pipemaker who has so little backlog of work as to be able to get you a 3/4 set in such a short time makes me wonder - a lot!

You didn’t say if this maker was someone who has been around a long time, or is a relatively new maker. There can be all sorts of reasons a pipemaker might fall behind. I suspect that often it is because pipemakers consider themselves as artisans and craftsmen, not business people, so they do not feel as constrained to schedules as we, their customers, might like. It could be that your set is coming the long route, or it could be that the pipemaker has no respect for you, a mere consumer, or a bit of both.

djm

4

Should you be worried? I think not. Upset? Sure.

Like buskerSean mentions, I think your experience is unfortunately typical. But I don’t know if we can deduce that pipemakers are necessarily bad businessmen. I think by and large they’re well-intentioned but . . . particularly seeing as how many are one-man-outfits, it’s probably exceedingly difficult to judge exactly how many projects concurrently is too many. I mean, if my secretary didn’t make me do stuff I never would, personally.

I totally empathize with you because I’ve had the same experience and it frustrated the absolute crap out of me. I have gotten much more zen about all of it, though, and with the set I’m currently waiting on, I made an effort to be a paragon of patience. And the maker’s been super and very communicative.

That said . . . actually, looking back at your post, what you’re going through does seem a bit extreme. Sigh.

Stuart

5

Oh, yeah, I have to add that I completely agree with djm. 6 months for a 3/4 set . . . !

I’ve got some idea of many makers’ wait times, and that sounds CRAZY fast. I think the initial estimate may have been, shall we say, optimistic?

Stuart

6

Sounds perfectly normal to me. :smiley:

Seriously though. These days, there are very few pipemakers that I’m aware of that are able to announce a firm delivery date and keep it without any changes. When I ordered my regulators in late 2005, I did so assuming that the delivery date (which was pretty vague from the start–12-18 months, I think) would probably take at least six months longer than the maximum time stated. As it stands now, it looks like that will nearly be the case. That’s fine with me. Regulators aren’t cheap and I’d like them done right rather than done fast. Plus, letting boxwood sit around on the shelf for a few extra months is never a bad idea…

In your case, did your pipemaker have access to a digital camera or a scanner and regular access to a reliable high speed internet connection that he could use in order to send you pictures of the set? Some pipemakers don’t…Have you spoken to the maker over the phone? Based on your description, it doesn’t sound as though your pipemaker has been frantically changing his story in order to justify not sending you your set as you seem to suggest, just that he’s behind on getting his orders finished, which is hardly a surprise. Then again, perhaps there are some details that you don’t wish to disclose…

At any rate, I wouldn’t worry about things too much and I certainly don’t think that the pipemaker is up to anything devious…Just try to be patient and realize that when you order a set of pipes from a single pipemaker working in isolation (I’m assuming), you’re almost certainly going to have to deal with some delays.

7

Yes, Ive had this experience also; in my case the fiasco included ridiculous excuses from the pipemaker (who had been paid a hefty sum in advance, in full, up front, for an instrument “in -stock, should take 6-8 weeks delivery”)…it showed up 5 years later (after severe personal pressure and legal tactics) and was, ultimately, substandard.
Good luck to you, if you’re in such a situation.

8

Thanks to all who’ve responded so far. It puts me at ease somewhat to know that I am not in this boat alone :wink: .

In your case, did your pipemaker have access to a digital camera or a scanner and regular access to a reliable high speed internet connection that he could use in order to send you pictures of the set?

Yes, at least he sure should. He has a very nice website with lots of pictures, and has not hesitated to send me pictures of other details in the past.

I’m still a bit puzzled though. Is it typical for the pipemaker to keep skirting the lead time, and pushing it up month by month? Moreover, is it more their job to contact the customer than the customer to keep flooding their inbox with “is it there yet?”. I feel so childish doing that, but I kinda want answers! I think I’d not be nearly as upset with this all if the maker had simply said “its gonna be another X months” in February, instead of assuring me the set was coming along, and would only be another month. Appeasement is dangerous!

Here’s another screwball: I should also mention that I will be off to college in the fall. Due to the school and security risks, I’m not going to be able to (it seems :cry:) keep the pipes in my dorm. This means I will have very little contact with them until holidays, when I can make it home. I had hoped to have them long before now, to play them in, make sure all is done right. If they should show up while I’m in school, I may not get home to inspect them for months. There is really no one I know around here to do this for me either, and my family is about as musically dis-inclined as they come…

I think a pipemakers guild would be a cool idea, but how would you start it up? Not being facetious, just genuinely curious.

9

I own a custom order business. I can sympathize with the pipe maker to a degree. It is nearly impossible to give people accurate turn around times. sometimes you will have a totally clear month and then the next day you wake up with hundreds of e-mails. Its just the way it is. It is hard, and i imagine that if his shop gets swamped with reeding chanters, or adjusting previously made instruments this would really mess up the turn around time. But at the same time…that is to long to wait from the quoted time, especially after so many e-mails. Occasionally an order will get misplaced or shuffled around in my shop. But usually after one e-mail, you bust your ass to get that stuff done and in the mail. I know how much i hate waiting for anything. I can only imagine how you feel.

10

I personally feel that if we are paying several thousand dollars for a set of pipes, and are willing to wait two years or longer, we can at least get a date. Granted there are unforseen circumstances such as illness, injury, or other. From what i have heard and experienced, the majority of pipemakers have rather accurate lead times. In the end, stories are told, word gets out, and business is lost, regardless of the quality of the finished product.

Sorry for your difficulties.

11

Yeah, that’s a quite a short lead time it seems..

However, also sounds to me that outside of the maker having a medical emergency, that the communication & customer service such as he had, is pretty abysmal in this day & age.

I wonder if it’s experiences such as that, that cause some to consider pipe making..knowing they’ll be so much better at the business end of things..

my most humble .02

Rich

12

Too bad. I can certainly feel for you…

13

I do sympathize with you. I have gone through the same thing several times. But, as has been stated, six months is such a short wait time.

When I started out I just ordered a chanter, and that took six months. And that was one of the shortest wait times I could find. I made my own bellows in the mean time, bag too, but that leaked like a sieve.

Since the wood needs to be bored out and then rest for a period of time, like a couple of months, before a chanter or drones are finished, if there is a flaw in the wood and you have to start over it can set you back quite a bit. I think this is where some of the experience comes in to play. That a pipe maker knows to give a longer wait time than they should expect.

I would be scared of a six month wait time for a 3/4th set. I recently ordered tenor and baritone regulator to be added to my half set and I am figuring about two years, but the maker has not quoted a time.

I hope the set comes out great and comes along soon (much more emphasis on the first).

14

I, too, have had similar experiences of a much longer wait than expected.

I do think that a maker should be able to explain this wait honestly; up front, and hopefully in good time before a delivery date is due, WITHOUT Prompting. If our choice of maker is correct, so far as to WHY we chose them; a delay, for whatever reason, would be OK - BUT only in so far that they TELL US WHY.

So, Pipemakers - KEEP US INFORMED!!! Wth computers these days it should be so easy. I don’t give a monkeys’ if you are a one man band, with an order book of either two years or fifteen; KEEP US INFORMED as to where we are!!! Wait for the howls when the demand falls away, and folk say sorry, I bought a Bodhran, and am very happy. :o for them, then.

Why can’t we name them, them that are so far off there delivery date.

15

What an unfortunate situation… I feel for you, oh Lord of the Strings…

I always wonder though, why folks feel it’s necessary to get a new set of pipes… Looking at the classifieds on uilleannobsession.com tonight (thanks Pat!) almost always has a some sets–starter, half, 3/4, full, you name it!). Since February, these have been listed:

• Full concert D set
• Half set
• Practice set
• C-sharp chanter (just had bag and bellows and voila, starter set!)

I got a used set of Gallagher pipes used from “No E”, and I am happier than (insert colloquial phrase here), they are gorgeous, sonorous, and best of all, no lead time! :smiley:

Just curious why folks would spend months or years waiting when all these “previously owned” sets are waiting for a good home? :astonished:

16

I guess that is because folks sometimes want something specific and not a [generic] [key] [size] set from [some maker]. If I was looking for a B set by Andreas Rogge (with the Rogge-specific sound) made from ebony, box and brass with an additional G/A drone, I would not buy a Gallagher B set (with the Gallagher-specific sound) made from boxwood and art. ivory with three drones (I of course don’t want to badmouth or glorify one maker or another, it’s just an example).

17

6 months could be quite normal, if you are a well-known good piper and can convince the maker that your set is urgent because you want to publish the next CD with the new set.
An experienced maker IMHO can make six to eight full sets a year. Delivery depends on how the orders are prioritized.
Miki

18

Regarding school & safety, consider asking the Music Dept. if they have a locker you can use to store your instrument. Then insure it as well. If you really want it to be with you, you could also get one of those steel-mesh security nets that padlocks (use the best padlock you can afford!!!) over a box/suitcase/instrument case) and attach it to your radiator or whatever. It’d be a shame to have it stolen, yes.. It’d also be a shame to not use it.

19

Hi Miki;

I think this depends on the maker - not every maker is willing to “drop everything” to make a set for even the most famous player. And delivering a 3/4 set or full set in 6 months would indeed require dropping everything since 6 months are required for settling time etc. - or should be!

As for making six to eight full sets a year, again I disagree. While some makers may be able to do this via various labor saving techniques, I know that I cannot come close to that figure. Four full sets a year is a more reasonable estimate.

Bill

20

I do feel that dropping a huge sum on anything should warrent some good degree of communication from the maker to the customer. Here’s where that pipe makers guild could be handy…

AS far as music lockers at my school, they do exist, and I already have two, one for a Viola, and one for my mandolin, etc. A third could be hard to procure…

Why people like to buy new? I looked around for about a year for a REASONABLE PRICED 3/4 or full set. Could never get one. Ordering one seemed to be the best option.

I realize 6 months is short, but say it was estimated 2 years. Whatever the initial period of waiting would be, if it was going to be extended, this should still be clearly communicated to the customer. And pushing out a month at a time is unprofessional, and really suceeds in getting ones hopes up.

I am by no means a great piper, or well known as one. I am known more as a string player, a luthier, and a whistle expiramentor. Not to toot my own penny whistle (har har), but I recently won a $30,000 scholarship playing a whistle and violin I had made. I have dabbled around with my own PVC chanter (also home made) and have generated interest with it. I hoped for an adaquite set to use for gigs, etc., and due to the lack of pipers here, it is of great interest to have pipers play at, say, the PGA (next week) or at funerals, weddings. I have had to decline profitable offers, as I have had no pipes to play.

I know we all have things we are waiting on, different financial situations, different playing abilities… the list goes on. But I don’t think its ever appropraite to deny someone of an instrument just because someone popular, richer, etc. places an order and bumps them back. THIS IS BY NO MEANS THE SITUATION I AM IN, NOR SOMETHING I FEEL MY MAKER WOULD DO, JUST A POINT TO MAKE!!! This is discrimination, and not right.