OT: Rolling protest

brownja · Post by **brownja** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 7:34 pm

On 2003-02-15 15:35, brian_k wrote:
Bush's 'conspiracy theory' nutters are thoroughly debunked at: http://www.rense.com/general34/fant.htm

That's pretty funny stuff. I like my satire to a bit more subtle, but still, it was good for a laugh.

George Bush is a bigger threat to the US and world peace that Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein could ever hope to be.

jb

Blackbeer · Post by **Blackbeer** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 7:56 pm

Amen Jim

Tom

chas · Post by **chas** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 8:37 pm

Ummm. . . This talk about the majority being against it doesn't make it wrong. After all, the US (and many other countries) is a constitutional republic rather than a democracy specifically to guard against the "tyrrany of the majority."

This isn't to say that I'm for attacking Iraq. I think there are good arguments on both sides. And I think that when people don't see both sides (of this issue or many others for that matter), it's because they don't want to.

livethe question · Post by **livethe question** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 8:47 pm

Hey Tom (and others)

Not only do you have good taste in whistles but I admire your politics

I had chance to hear Dr Helen Caldicott speak in Lincoln< Nebraska this morning and then there was a rally in support of peace. The numbers were in the hundreds, not the thousands, but in light of the rain, freezing rain, sleet, and snow that dumped on us last night, it wasn't too shabby.

bdatki · Post by **bdatki** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 9:01 pm

George Bush is a bigger threat to the US and world peace that Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein could ever hope to be.

jb

I take issue with this statement. Has President Bush ever gassed his own citizens, invaded his neighbor, destroyed 4500 towns and villages in his own country, displaced 900,000 of his citizens, or killed thousands upon thousands of his own citizens in his brutal police state?

Has President Bush ordered his minions to crash airplanes into skyscrapers, killing 3000? Or blown up embassies or ships or barracks? Or helped to spread a virulent network of radical terrorists?

I don't think so.

Whether or not you agree with a war that has not even started, it is highly spurious to say that President Bush is a greater threat to world peace than these two characters.

Sorry for the rant.

[ This Message was edited by: bdatki on 2003-02-15 22:03 ]

TubeDude · Post by **TubeDude** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 9:19 pm

On 2003-02-15 22:01, bdatki wrote:

George Bush is a bigger threat to the US and world peace that Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein could ever hope to be.

jb
I take issue with this statement. Has President Bush ever gassed his own citizens, invaded his neighbor, destroyed 4500 towns and villages in his own country, displaced 900,000 of his citizens, or killed thousands upon thousands of his own citizens in his brutal police state?

Has President Bush ordered his minions to crash airplanes into skyscrapers, killing 3000? Or blown up embassies or ships or barracks? Or helped to spread a virulent network of radical terrorists?

I don't think so.

Whether or not you agree with a war that has not even started, it is highly spurious to say that President Bush is a greater threat to world peace than these two characters.

Sorry for the rant.

[ This Message was edited by: bdatki on 2003-02-15 22:03 ]

Telling the truth is never a rant. My hat is off to you.

Blackbeer · Post by **Blackbeer** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 9:29 pm

Your rant is very typical of those who swallow the lies and inuendoes of the propaganda machine that is cranked up to the top notch. I invite you to educate yourself on the topics you have mentioned rather then take the word of a nation who is the largest producer of weapons of mass distruction in the world, who relies on the sale of said products for 25% of its gross national product, who commands 73% of the worlds natural resources, who has turned its back on countless treaties and agreements, leading to the suffering and death of countless thousands of inocent lives. I invite you to get real.

Tom

bdatki · Post by **bdatki** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 9:45 pm

Tom, I've read about you in other posts and I have much respect for you. I don't want to get into a flame war here, but how can you deny the things I have said? It is common knowledge that all of these things have happened. Have you heard of the Amnesty International people who were protesting when the British government used their own files to show what horrible crimes Hussein has done? It doesn't make sense to me.

Also, I don't think I am swallowing the lies of any propaganda machine, considering that not half an hour ago CNN was showing all the massive protests around the world. If you want to see real bias in the news, go look at the media of Saudi Arabia. Or Iraq. We have independent media in America. Our media is very far from perfect, but I think most would agree that our system is much better than having all the news channels owned by the government.

I agree that there are sorry chapters in America's past, and it would be impossible to argue otherwise. But it is also impossible to deny the things I have mentioned.

mvhplank · Post by **mvhplank** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 9:51 pm

Settle down, guys. Tom, it's possible they are real but just haven't been skeptical enough or studied up on prevailing issues. Or maybe they just disagree with you.

Take a few minutes and tour this web site that my tae kwon do instructor reads.

There's lots of interesting stuff here that sometimes flies under the radar of the more mainstream national media.

http://www.truthout.org

M
who is all for peace on the Chiff & Fipple forum

[edits: bad thinking]
_________________
Marguerite
Gettysburg

[ This Message was edited by: mvhplank on 2003-02-15 22:57 ]

bdatki · Post by **bdatki** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 9:58 pm

I should clarify that I was contrasting President Bush with Saddam Hussein first and to Osama bin Laden second. Thus my statement about the WTC attack was in regards to Osama Bin Laden, not Saddam Hussein. Sorry if it was unclear.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but I disagree with you that I am not being skeptical enough or ignorant on the subject. I think I just have a different viewpoint on the matters at hand.

B

[ This Message was edited by: bdatki on 2003-02-15 23:03 ]

mvhplank · Post by **mvhplank** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 9:59 pm

On 2003-02-15 22:58, bdatki wrote:
I don't mean to be argumentative, but I disagree with you that I am not being skeptical enough or ignorant on the subject. I think I just have a different viewpoint on the same information.

Yep. I covered that possibility.

M

bdatki · Post by **bdatki** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 10:01 pm

My bad.

brianormond · Post by **brianormond** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 10:05 pm

-I spent today in Seattle driving a bus, and had so many individuals and families aboard bound for a peace march that the bus groaned from the load and could hold no more.-Many were turned away.

-The newspaper prediction of 10,000 marchers turned out twice that, and lots of families marched together. As many seemed to go with kids as without. -Maybe its a local demographic, but its clear that opposition to this war can't be characterized as
a product of "professional protesters", disgruntled outsiders, geeks, parasites
or marginal characters. -Opposition to the war is mainstream here and a family affair.
-My own opinion?
Well, Saddam's gotta go, but.....I recall the Vietnam war years well and don't want to see a replay. Secretary Powell's recent statements that the war could only be a last resort seems contradicted by the buildup going on now.

-The Gulf Of Tonkin resolution legitimizing U.S. war in Vietnam sprang from an incident later found to be spurious, massaged and marketed to the public and congress as rationale for military action. Does anyone else see similarities in the way this war is presented for our approval?

-The Bush-Powell drive toward war frightens and dismays me, but I will support serving men & women regardless, for they are my kin. I am two-minded about this war, but have seen nothing from the Bush administration to indicate anything but cynical values at play in this prologue. The rub for me is the memory of Neville Chamberlain, selling out in negotiations with Hitler to obtain "Peace in our time". That didn't work out too well.

-Whatever happened to the idea of reducing dependence on foreign oil?
(by higher fuel efficiency standards, for example)
I guess our taste for oil has convinced us we have rights, moral or otherwise- to buy it and burn it regardless of political, social and environmental costs. Perhaps we do have the right. Its been said here before-Its all about us, or more particularly, about me and my powerboat. Hmmm...This demands a tune. How about Planxty Fanny Powerboat?

_________________
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana."
-B.

[ This Message was edited by: brianormond on 2003-02-16 00:50 ]

Rando7 · Post by **Rando7** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 10:15 pm

[/quote]

I take issue with this statement. Has President Bush ever gassed his own citizens, invaded his neighbor, destroyed 4500 towns and villages in his own country, displaced 900,000 of his citizens, or killed thousands upon thousands of his own citizens in his brutal police state?

[/quote]

You left out tying little kids to tanks to serve as human shields. Bush is nowhere near the tyrants and madmen that Hussein and Bin Laden are, however I will concede that since has Bush has much more power, even relatively minor actions by him may carry greater effect overall.

I was not a member of this board during the Kosovo bombing. Was there widespread anti-war sentiment? I don't recall worldwide protests even though Milosevic was no threat to the US and numerous civilians were killed. I suspect a lot of the protests in the US, and possibly worldwide, are the usual cast of characters knee-jerking against anything Bush or the GOP says.

[ This Message was edited by: Rando7 on 2003-02-15 23:17 ]

spittin_in_the_wind · Sat Feb 15, 2003 10:20 pm

I know a number of people who either went to todays protests, or have gone to others in the recent past. Let me tell you that they are not "professional protestors"....these are people with jobs, who take their valuable weekends and spend it by standing in the rain or snow, and bone-chilling temperatures. More power to them, even if you disagree with their politics. These people stand by what they believe in, which is more than I can say for most.

One of them was a co-worker from France...it was almost a non-issue for her that she would go protest today, almost non-chalant and expected. Believe me, if it was me it would have been a big deal, to go down to NY and protest, let alone in this weather, but she was completely unphased. As a normal American, I have never participated in these kinds of thing; maybe I should have; but I've restricted myself to letters to Congressmen, never putting myself bodily into the process. It would be a very big deal, for me. What a shame, I say.

One can't be so critical unless they've "been there"....whether they be soldiers or protesters.

Robin