boehm / simple system ?

[bramble]

Preparing for the tomato throws ...

Writing a pros/cons of simple/boehm in traditional music ...

I'd be really interested to know your reasons for your preferences to boehm / simple system / keyed for traditional music?

Wood or Silver? - Why?
Simple or Boehm?
Why did you choose the system you did?
What makes it a better system than the other (for traditional music)?
What is the most important aspect of the debate to you?
What you're used to / Fingering / Tone / Ornamentation / Tradition / Aesthetics / Other?

Arguments for an against would be great
Be as outrageous as you like ....... (Jem)

[pflipp]

I found out that my preference for Simple System, beside the more obvious reasons, mainly revolves around the middle C.

On a Boehm system, you get middle C either by lifting your thumb or overblowing low C (the latter may be unofficial). Either way there is a point in your scale where you suddenly have to add a lot of fingers and start overblowing. (And a lot of fingers here also means thumbs and pinkies!)

On a Simple System, the C fingering is almost a convenient preparation for the D that follows. The step from B to C takes some timing, but after a little practice it is just as convenient.

(I always tell myself that if you want to play diatonic music, you really don't need the complexity of a chromatic instrument. And for a lot of (wind) instruments, the post-baroque chromatic alterations really make the difference between simple and complex. The above is just my case in point for the flute.)

[jemtheflute]

Outrage? Me? Outrageous!

No time (thank gawd, they all sigh) for a lengthy (by my standards! ) exposition..... I started on Bohm but it didn't make the right sound for my taste for the music I wanted to play as I heard it, even though I think I modified the sound i made towards the sound I admired, within my limited skills at the time. Nor did the ornamentation work as well as I found it do so on whistle...... I wouldn't say Bohm can't do it in terms of notes/fingerings played (alright, some are different, some effects possible on SS aren't on Bohm and vice versa) - in general it can, at least in speed terms, but the effects are different, lack clarity, no pop - even ornaments done using the keys on a Simple System are crisper than on Bohm, and of course there's no (constant) key rattle (I know a well set up, good quality Bohm shouldn't have much key noise, but it is there, if only from the percussion of the platter over the large tone-hole). Add to that a taste for old things, for historically informed performance (not just in music) etc. - it just appealed/made sense to shift. Trying out on old/wooden instruments (I had my family 6-key F flute from almost the start) as opportunities arose confirmed my expectations and taste, so when I could, I swapped and have never wanted to go back.

Of your list of motives (What you're used to / Fingering / Tone / Ornamentation / Tradition / Aesthetics / Other), I'd take all the central 5, admit that latterly the first is pertinent and I could probably think of some others too.....

I don't object in any silly purist way to people playing trad (or Baroque/Classical) music on Bohm flute (viz that young Tara Breen YT clip with her playing a wooden Bohm we discussed a while back)..... , especially if their playing evinces that they have at least made an effort to understand and use appropriate idioms, but I am almost never satisfied by their playing/sound.

In my own playing I don't aim or claim to achieve some kind of "authenticity" to anyone's definition of "The Tradition" - I just play as best I can in a way generally within my perceptions of the tradition, but often pushing at my own and maybe its limitations - "authentic" in spirit if not in detail, though not in some woolly, new-age way. Hence I prefer 8-key flutes and like to play pieces that explore and exploit the keys.

[bramble]

Of your list of motives (What you're used to / Fingering / Tone / Ornamentation / Tradition / Aesthetics / Other), I'd take all the central 5, admit that latterly the first is pertinent and I could probably think of some others too.....

Jem, when you do have time ... this would be greeeeaaaaattttt!

[jemtheflute]

An afterthought regarding the core of the OP with specific reference to ITM: the use of the flute to play ITM/the playing of ITM on the flute (not quite the same thing) have developed upon the Simple System flute, with or without (use of) keys. That instrument has certain technical proclivities and limitations that the developed and developing ITM use of the flute have built upon quite specifically. These are different from the strengths and weaknesses of Bohm's flute, and had that been the main flute used in ITM from mid C19th to today, doubtless ITM flute styles/ways of playing ITM on flute would be significantly different than they actually are. The closer similarity of SS than Bohm to the other winds in the tradition, Uillean Pipes and Whistle are also material.

Bohm players of ITM, even those fully raised within the tradition, tend to emulate SS styles as best they may because those are dominant and have become "definitive" - allowing that even in my own awareness of and participation in ITM (c30 years), I can see ongoing changes and developments - not least driven by the increasing availability of keyless flutes in the last 15 years or so. The older players may not have used their keys on their antique flutes much nor bothered to keep them maintained, but they were there if they wanted them! I think a modern keyless style can be detected in recent years. (But don't ask me to define/describe it!)

(I'll forward my fee for writing your essay, shall I....? )

[bramble]

Thanks for the thoughts Jem, I think you're right in terms of 'the developing style was built upon simple system in ITM'. I'm writing about Scottish music, where flutes have only become fashionable in the last 40 years really. So the boehm question becomes more interesting there I think, people who played boehm have moved to simple, either because of tone, technique, or copying Irish musicians (many swapped shortly after Matt Molloy's 1st album in 1976), or ornamentation or, well lots of reasons I suppose. But it's interesting that within Scottish we cannot simplay say, well it's been like that for 150 years. True, there were flute players in the military bands, most of whom played fife type instruments, or maybe it's because simple system replicates pipe fingering and ornamentation more easily.
So, with this in mind, that's why I was asking my questions...
Do people play SS becuase it's 'what is done'? or did they try both and choose, or what? What did they base their decisions on? Tone, ease, diatonics? availability of instrument? Just interested really!
Jem, you are as always a source of inspiration and wisdom.

[dsmootz]

If I may thrown in my two cents...I'm a relative beginner (just over a year) to both the flute and Irish music (though I've been studying other styles of music for ~20 years). I started my ITM path on the whistle, and quickly tiring of the shrill high end, switched to low whistle. I was still unsatisfied by the forced correlation of high pitch and high volume inherent to whistles, so I started thinking about the flute.

I already owned an old, student-model silver flute, but I've probably spent less than two hours with it in the decade or so I've owned it, and the pads are in bad enough shape that only a few notes are playable. So, I had the options of having the silver flute re-padded, or buying a SS flute, and I quickly and easily decided to go with the SS. A major component of this decision was the matching of the fingering system between the whistle and SS flute - I had spent the past few months learning tunes with 6 holes, why should I deal with a bunch of keys instead, when I could just as easily play an instrument that translated directly?

Also weighing heavily in my decision making process were a number of factors that fall under the heading of "what everyone else is doing." As a new entrant to the ITM world, and particularly as a classically-trained convert, I was (and continue to be) somewhat anxious to demonstrate to the more experienced players that I am serious, and aware that different rules apply here than in classical-land; I want to learn from these players, therefore I want them to feel that taking time to converse with me about technique, give me pointers, etc., is a good use of their time...I've already seen many newcomers disappear from the local learning sessions after attending only once or twice. Further, if I were playing a silver flute, there simply wouldn't be as much overlap in what the expert flute players do vs. what I need to learn to do...workshops and retreats would be significantly less useful, to the degree that they focus on nitty gritty, finger-level technique (which may well be much less at more advanced levels).

[jemtheflute]

Can't help you with Scottish music other than to refer you to that Jack Campin website about the flute in Scotland/STM and maybe contact Calum Stewart or Gordon Turnbull (both on my FB) and see what they know???

Do people play SS becuase it's 'what is done'? or did they try both and choose, or what? What did they base their decisions on? Tone, ease, diatonics? availability of instrument? Just interested really!

I haven't read it, but Hammy Hamilton's book deals with this re: ITM, I believe, though I don't think from having heard him speak on the topic that he had any unexpected insights.... he may have adduced some documented evidence about origins of use of the 8-key SS in Ireland, though. Worth checking, anyway.

Originally it was probably chiefly a question of (cheap/ready) availability - certainly early photos of IT musicians in the US tend to show them playing nach Meyer type flutes. Now, I'd say it's more "because it's what is done", received from ingrained tradition.... and also because of what I wrote above about the instrument and the way of (desired) playing interacting - look at the explosion of modern makers as extant good period flutes became less available due to competition for them. (Though that is not the sole reason for that development, which I think is part of a wider cultural movement of historical replication/reconstruction and experimentation with "outdated" technologies etc.)

Jem, you are as always a source of inspiration and wisdom.

Steady on!

[benhall.1]

Oh, good grief!

Jem, you are as always a source of inspiration and wisdom.

Anyway, in my case, it's all his fault. I wanted to get a flute. Left to my own devices, I would have got a keyless flute, and probably toyed with it for a while, before losing interest. Jem said that, knowing me, I'd want the additional capabilities of an 8-key sooner or later, so why not start off with one? I bought my first from Jem ... and now, I'm obsessed. I have some beautiful flutes.

And that's it, for me. I play fiddle in all sorts of contexts, including leading a Chamber Orchestra. This means I have lots of classical musical friends and acquaintances. The flutists always say things like "Why are you bothering with that thing?" and "Sooner or later you'll want to progress to a silver flute". But silver Boehm flutes just don't capture my imagination like the wooden 8-key flutes do, especially the antiques. And I want to learn to play the 8-key flute for all sorts of music, just like I play all sorts of music on violin.

Grade V in the Spring, I think.

[jemtheflute]

Everything's my fault. It always is.....

Meanwhile, another thought ( ) - one of the very first people I ever saw/heard playing SS wooden flute was Phil Smillie of The Tannahill Weavers. (Cardiff University Folk Festival 1979!) He's still going strong - and may well have been one of the first modern players to use SS in STM. Try contacting him?

[benhall.1]

Oh, and all this (the obsession, that is) in less than two years.

[tin tin]

I came to Irish trad and simple-system flute after about 15 years of (mostly) classical Boehm flute study. For me, it comes down to tone above all. I was smitten with the Baroque flute in my late teens and began longing for the warm tones of wood (therafter always aiming for the darkest tone I could on the silver flute). It all fell into place for me about seven years ago when I decided to focus solely on Irish trad where, happy coincidence, the wooden simple system flute is a standard instrument.

I did make a go at trad on the Boehm system, but I think the simple system is a better fit with regards to fingering and ornamentation. I also like the slightly uneven scale--I want my cross-fingered C-nat to sound a bit shaded, etc.

Overall, for me, the simple-system flute feels more personal and intimate than the silver Boehm flute.

[bramble]

Cheers for the contacts Jem, I think I have them on the list!
x

[I.D.10-t]

It's not the same instrument. No more so than a baroque flute. It is like comparing an electric guitar to the electric banjo. If you want to paint, baroque flute. If you want to dance, simple system. If you want to play in the orchestra, Boehm. There are many players that can play better than me (many in high school) that can cross the lines.

PS A fife is not a polite instrument.

[Julia Delaney]

It's not about the fingering. It's about the sound. The honk, baby, the honk. That raspy bleat that you can't get on the metal flute.
Timber flutes are for heroes.