Pratton vs Rudall

[Ben Shaffer]

So what determines a Pratton and what determines a RR? I know most Prattons are thought to have bigger finger holes, but if you go by Terry McGees site some RR models can in fact have finger holes as big. Now the other question is, do Prattons have a bigger diameter bores, or all RR and Prattons about the same in terms of bore diameter? I realize there may be no final word on this, but just wanted to here what you all have to say on this
Ben Shaffer

[RudallRose]

first of all ben....is PrattEn

secondly....as endlessly as this topic has be battered around on this board......many many times.......
it would be helpful to clarify if you mean the ORIGINAL flutes of Pratten design vs. the ORIGINAL flutes of Rudall & Rose and their various off-shoots......or do you mean TODAY's copies and the various tweeks the makers have made to them.

Few of today's makers have measured more than a few (perhaps 4 or 5) original Rudalls and Prattens to come up with their design......some have even done just one or two. Even fewer replicate the actual embouchure cuts of those flutes, which make a HUGE difference in how today's flutes play.

There is much more to your question than you actually realized. And should you wish to make this one the definitive thread on the matter, perhaps the GURU himself will sticky note this one and place it at the top of the board so we don't have to go through this every couple months or so.

Of course, one good way to know what these flutes are all about is to play them. How? come by for a visit, my friend, as many have. You'll get to play original Rudalls of small/med/large holes, large bores, Boosey and Hudson Prattens, Clementi Nicholson and the other originals and get to judge for yourself.
sometimes someone goes home with one, other times they pine for one, and still others say they prefer their own flute. But at least their curiosity becomes knowledge and they finally can say for themselves what is what.


dm

[tucson_whistler]

f course, one good way to know what these flutes are all about is to play them. How? come by for a visit, my friend, as many have. You'll get to play original Rudalls of small/med/large holes, large bores, Boosey and Hudson Prattens, Clementi Nicholson and the other originals and get to judge for yourself.
sometimes someone goes home with one, other times they pine for one, and still others say they prefer their own flute. But at least their curiosity becomes knowledge and they finally can say for themselves what is what.

i would love to do that. where are you? seriously.

i wanted to ask a similar question; i feel like i have a handle on Prattens and Rudalls, but what about Prowse?

if anyone wants to try and make gross generalizations, until i can get out to David's to try them , is there general characteristics that distinguish Prowse from Hudson from Nicholson?

and what i've always wondered, if Mr. Olwell makes a Pratten and a Nicholson, what version of the Pratten is the "Pratten" (as opposed to the Nicholson) based on?

all very frustrating for one trapped out in the wilds of Arizona...

cheers,
eric

[Denny]

less that 13 hours, mostly NE

[Unseen122]

Well, I'm certainly no expert but Pratten and Nicholson were flute players not makers. The instruments that are called by their names are based off of Pratten and Nicholson Perfected flutes which were designed by the aforementioned players. I believe Prattens are generally a bit larger than Nicholsons but as I said I am not the expert on the subject. You should check out Terry McGee site as there is a lot of info on this subject.

[Ben Shaffer]

[quote="David Migoya"]first of all ben....is PrattEn

secondly....as endlessly as this topic has be battered around on this board......many many times.......

secondly of all David, its Ben, not ben
third of all it's Pratten, not is Pratten
This topic has been battered about, but revisting it with new people can add some Insights
Clearly not easy to answer this PrattEn question.
Pratten Flutes as I understand it are thought to be loud, so are the very loudest Flutes pratten in nature as an adjective?
Finger hole size can be an indicator, but not always as RR Flutes can have big holes.
Again going back to bore diameter do Pratten Flutes in general have bigger diameter bores than other style Flutes, anyone know anything about this? You would think that this would account for the greater volume.

[Casey Burns]

There are some general characteristics when comparing the two, even with viewing a limited number of instruments. Most of the Prattens I examined were all with the same bore profile, more or less as well as nearly identical hole placements. Rudalls tend to be slightly narrower bored in the body than the Prattens, and usually feature smaller holes located a bit closer to the embouchure - sometimes only slightly compared with the Pratten in the latest models by Rudall Carte.

Here is a graph I made fairly early in my flute making career comparing the bores of the two types. This was based on maybe 7 or 8 Prattens/Hudsons, and about a dozen or more Rudalls I measured back then. Note the wider and slightly less tapered bore of the Pratten.



I think that the bore is what makes the biggest difference between the two flute types - and the hole placement, embouchure, wall thicknesses, undercutting are of secondary importance. This is not to say that one is better than the other, simply because its bigger. The Pratten may give more volume than the Rudall - remember that there was basically an arms race for volume amongst flute types in the mid 19th century. But this comes with some sacrifices and effort required! Some players may wish to trade a little bit of volume for having a flute that is easier to play.

Casey

[Ben Shaffer]

Thanks Casey that was exactly the information I was looking for!
Ben Shaffer

[jim stone]

Also paradigmatic prattenesque flutes have a more open, fuller sound while paradigmatic rudallesque flutes
tend to be more focused. There really is a difference tween the sound of the paradigms (as opposed to flutes that
are actually approaching each other in bore diameter, etc) and it can drive one quite mad deciding
which one prefers--as they are immensely beautiful in substantially different ways.

[m31]

Now that we know Pratts have more engine volume, how will that affect the choice of flute or the way either is played?

[jim stone]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Gjxxt4kRws

Rudall (old one, I think)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr-qOnu1 ... re=related

Prattenesque (Olwell I think)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig1Uvulj ... re=related

Pratten (Hammy Hamilton)

[Blayne Chastain]

Thanks for those clips Jim.

Fantastic display of what can be achieved on a Rudall (reproduction by Rod Cameron) with small to medium sized holes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVl-0VkrbHc

Looks like Chris recorded this tune with Skyedance. Available on iTunes also here:

http://www.culburnie.com/albums/Skyedance/labyrinth.htm

Best,

[Julia Delaney]

First, go here: http://www.worldtrad.org/WFO1_CD.htm
This is Kevin Krell's site. He posts here frequently and thoughtfully.
You'll see what make flute different players are playing.
You will note that there is very little difference based on the flute,
but an enormous difference from player to player.
Most accomplished players play clearly, in tune and with good volume.
It may be that the loudest Prattens are 5% louder than the loudest Rudalls.
How important is that? How important is volume?

[Steampacket]

I have an Olwell Pratten, a Murray, and a Wilkes - three modern flutes and the Olwell is very easy to blow, just about plays itself, like a chanter with a very light reed, and you get a big sound from the get go, whereas the Murray and Wilkes that are Rudall based as regards bore and finger holes, are quieter initially, but can achive the same volume if one blows a little harder and focused. All three are easy to play for me and I like the different tone/voices they have.

Have not played an original Pratten or Rudall so can't compare. At the end of the day I think it comes down to the person playing the flute and what suits them. Take master flute players such as Kevin Crawford or Conal O'Grada, they play modern flutes that play in tune, and have plenty of soul and power. I don't think they would sound better laying old 19th century Rudalls or Pratten models.

[I.D.10-t]

Firth & Pond?