Rose versus Camp at the Old Bailey

[Terry McGee]

Supposing I told you that Rose (from Rudall & Rose) took Camp (from Rudall & Rose) to the Old Bailey, on charges of stealing flute joints. And not just one Camp, but three! You're not going to fall for a story like that are you?

Just check out: http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Rose%20vs%20Camp.htm before you decide ....

Terry

[Thalatta]

Fascinting stuff Terry, thanks. 6 months! Not a good time to steal, but maybe they were pushed to it in those times (I've read me Dickens, I 'av!). I found another case on the Old Bailey online involving Henry Fentum (with, as witness, his "shop lad" Charles Wylde, son of Henry Wylde) against another young fella accused of attempting to buy something at his music shop with counterfeit coins: http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/images.j ... 4502030101 Sentence: Guilty, 6 months! So, Terry, if I were to steal something from you (say one of your gorgeous flutes) would I get 6 months in Australia? I'd love that, I've never been!
Shane

[kkrell]

Very interesting stuff, Terry. So, who's this Mr. Payne (conducting the prosecution and the same name mentioned as supplier of wood to John Camp in the 3rd trial)?

[Jon C.]

Interesting Terry!
I wonder if this had anything to do with the RRC flutes like mine, that don't have serial numbers, but the proper stamp. Kind of makes you wonder?

Here is a a article I found mentioning the prisoner, John Camp, flute maker...
http://books.google.com/books?id=zGVMAA ... er&f=false

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/ ... 6/page.pdf

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/images.j ... 3506150154
Do you think it could be the same Camp, that later showed up working in Fluteville with Asa Hopkins? I can see him leaving the country and moving to the USA to start a new life...
Long shot, but the flutes he made looked a lot like R&R flutes from that period, even sporting an Eb pewter key!

[Terry McGee]

So, Terry, if I were to steal something from you (say one of your gorgeous flutes) would I get 6 months in Australia? I'd love that, I've never been!
Shane

Flute rustlers? We normally just throw them to the sharks!

Seriously, it does seem a heavy sentence doesn't it. But that was the response the British government of the time routinely used, perhaps not understanding or capable of solving the underlying social problems. Coincidentally, my partner Jesse is currently reading some historical accounts of early convict settlement here in New South Wales. It seems most of the convicts, sent out for 7 years (effectively life - how are you ever going to pay for the return voyage?), quickly settled down to a productive life in the colony, many being "emancipated" well before their sentence ran out on account of their diligence and excellent behaviour. Many went on to be community leaders and even philanthropists. This bears out that grinding poverty in England at the time was the sole reason for most of their offences. If it's the simple choice of feeding the children or not, who wouldn't steal?

Terry

[Terry McGee]

Very interesting stuff, Terry. So, who's this Mr. Payne (conducting the prosecution and the same name mentioned as supplier of wood to John Camp in the 3rd trial)?

Probably unrelated people, coincidently of the same name. I imagine the prosecution Payne to be a servant of the court or the police. Interesting that Rose is referred to as the Prosecutor. These days we'd probably call him something like the Claimant, or Crown Witness, or something similar.

Terry

[Terry McGee]

Interesting Terry!
I wonder if this had anything to do with the RRC flutes like mine, that don't have serial numbers, but the proper stamp. Kind of makes you wonder?

Yeah, it's nice to find out a bit about how these flutes were made. As we saw, other makers supplied the joints, and then these were assessed by Rose and either accepted or rejected. If accepted, they were presumably then collated into flutes, and then stamped with the makers mark. Obviously, had these joints already been stamped, they could not have been safely stolen, and that fact would have been educed in court. But perhaps the application of serial numbers waited till the flute was about to leave the premises (or the numbers wouldn't always be serial!). So something went wrong with yours between marking and numbering. Could have been snitched, or simply someone forgot to do the numbering?

Do you think it could be the same Camp, that later showed up working in Fluteville with Asa Hopkins? I can see him leaving the country and moving to the USA to start a new life...
Long shot, but the flutes he made looked a lot like R&R flutes from that period, even sporting an Eb pewter key!

Heh heh, as I mentioned privately, their dates overlap, so they are different Camps. Nice try, though!

Terry

[Jon C.]

I would think that the joints would have to be made to work with each other. I have seen different flutes of the same make have very different dimensions on the tenon/sockets. Surely they would have to have made all the joints to fit. I seem to recall in the testimony, Payne produced a upper joint that matched the lower joint, proving that it wasn't Mr. Roses lower joint, but one consigned to be made for Payne. I have also found flutes that have a tenon clearly mismatched with the socket, being to short, this on a stamped flute, shoddy workmanship, or like you say sections made in batches then fit together later?

[MikeS]

So, Terry, if I were to steal something from you (say one of your gorgeous flutes) would I get 6 months in Australia? I'd love that, I've never been!
Shane

Flute rustlers? We normally just throw them to the sharks!

Seriously, it does seem a heavy sentence doesn't it. But that was the response the British government of the time routinely used, perhaps not understanding or capable of solving the underlying social problems. Coincidentally, my partner Jesse is currently reading some historical accounts of early convict settlement here in New South Wales. It seems most of the convicts, sent out for 7 years (effectively life - how are you ever going to pay for the return voyage?), quickly settled down to a productive life in the colony, many being "emancipated" well before their sentence ran out on account of their diligence and excellent behaviour. Many went on to be community leaders and even philanthropists. This bears out that grinding poverty in England at the time was the sole reason for most of their offences. If it's the simple choice of feeding the children or not, who wouldn't steal?

Terry

This gives me a chance to bring up, for those here not already familiar with it, Peter Bellamy's "The Transports." First released in 1977, it's a folk opera detailing the true experience of an 18th century family. Bellamy was a gifted composer and the cast is amazing, with Norma Watterson, Martin Carthy, A. L. Lloyd, June Tabor, and Nic Jones, among others. If you have not heard it you are in for both a treat and a moving experience.

http://www.thetransports.com/

The song "Us Poor Fellows" speaks directly to Terry's point.

The times they are hard and the wages are poor
None of us poor fellows has money in store
So how can a good man keep the wolf from the door?
Poor fellows, we all will go down:
When work it is scarce, tell me, how can we eat?
How can we afford to buy shoes for our feet
And how can we get clothing to keep off the sleet?
Poor fellows, we might as well drown.

If we could find labour we ne'er would complain
We'd work well for a master his favour to gain
We'd be honest and faithful with never a stain
But, poor fellows, how will we survive?
We could plough the good land, we could fish the salt sea
We could work in the woodland a-felling of trees
But when only the breath of our bodies is free,
Poor fellows, can we stay alive?

Now a man that is single, he's free of all care
He can soon leave a district if no work be there
There's no manner of hardship that he cannot bear
Poor fellows, if he is alone;
But a man with a family, his hands they are tied
He must look to their comfort or lose all his pride
He can't wander away but must stay by their side
Poor fellows, and maintain his home.

Oh a man that is willing can't understand why
He can find no employment how hard he may try
And it break his poor heart for to see his wife cry
So poor fellow, he'll do what he can;
And a man that is desperate and can't find a job
He will not be contended to sit home and sob
But he ever so honest, he'll turn out and rob
Poor fellow, to prove he's a man.

If a good man goes robbing, you know it's a shame
He brings scorn and misfortune on his honest name
But in pitiful straits, tell me, who is to blame?
Poor fellow, you know he must try;
So let's hope that these hard times they soon pass away
All unto our sweet saviour we earnestly pray
That this dark cloudy morn brings a glorious day
Poor fellows, some time ere we die.

[Terry McGee]

I would think that the joints would have to be made to work with each other. I have seen different flutes of the same make have very different dimensions on the tenon/sockets. Surely they would have to have made all the joints to fit. I seem to recall in the testimony, Payne produced a upper joint that matched the lower joint, proving that it wasn't Mr. Roses lower joint, but one consigned to be made for Payne. I have also found flutes that have a tenon clearly mismatched with the socket, being to short, this on a stamped flute, shoddy workmanship, or like you say sections made in batches then fit together later?

I wonder if they didn't complete the tenons, perhaps just roughed them out, with final fitting taking place once the flute joints had been collated into a flute. Indeed, was the mysterious initial that we don't seem to ever see marked on the roughed tenon, and thus disappeared during final fitting?

Raises another question too. If we accept that more than one maker was providing roughed joints, how were they reamed? Perhaps the answer is roughly, leaving Rose or his chief to tweak the bore for best results. Chambering (using a range of tools) might have been the name for this operation.

Terry

[Holmes]

I wonder if pilfering like this prompted the famous signed R&R label in the top of the original cases?

H

http://www.box.net/shared/av4ot966ah F Pratten Flute with Fairport. Conv & Rob Fox

http://www.box.net/shared/zz1dr5c0p9 Blacksmith's Fancy H&Mc R&R Cocobolo

[ajay]

Lots of great information there, Terry.

Look what happened to a lad who nicked a couple of Samuel Potters!

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.j ... 18220109-4

cheers
Andrew

[david_h]

Could some of the unmarked and oddly marked flutes have been related to things made from 'cabbage' in the garment trade "Extra Leftover cloth from a garment cut from a length of cloth as ordered, which, with great and economic skill, allows the cutters to make extra garments which are then sold for pin money" (from http://www.eurekaencyclopedia.com/index ... ment_Trade) I once bought a jacket of oddly matched fabric and the shop assistant took out a different coloured pen to write out the reciept - 'cabbage' said someone knowingly when we were back in the street. It was common in a small manufacturing town for off-cuts to be turned into ornaments on the lath at work, little jobs- 'foreigners'- where done on "the masters time" and a blind eye was often turned to consumables being used for work-related hobbies. (How many office worker buy paperclips ?)

Selling unmarked factory seconds in a staff shop is still common. Did Mr Rose keep the firms stamp in the safe with the cash ?

Where some of these guys on piece work ? Using the workshop and off-cuts for other things might be OK with limits. But if it was taken too far an example had to be made of the worst offenders.

[Jon C.]

Lots of great information there, Terry.

Look what happened to a lad who nicked a couple of Samuel Potters!

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.j ... 18220109-4

cheers
Andrew

That was severe punishment!

[Jon C.]

Could some of the unmarked and oddly marked flutes have been related to things made from 'cabbage' in the garment trade "Extra Leftover cloth from a garment cut from a length of cloth as ordered, which, with great and economic skill, allows the cutters to make extra garments which are then sold for pin money" (from http://www.eurekaencyclopedia.com/index ... ment_Trade) I once bought a jacket of oddly matched fabric and the shop assistant took out a different coloured pen to write out the reciept - 'cabbage' said someone knowingly when we were back in the street. It was common in a small manufacturing town for off-cuts to be turned into ornaments on the lath at work, little jobs- 'foreigners'- where done on "the masters time" and a blind eye was often turned to consumables being used for work-related hobbies. (How many office worker buy paperclips ?)

Selling unmarked factory seconds in a staff shop is still common. Did Mr Rose keep the firms stamp in the safe with the cash ?

Where some of these guys on piece work ? Using the workshop and off-cuts for other
things might be OK with limits. But if it was taken too far an example had to be made of the worst offenders.

The unbranded flutes could have been made in off hours, or seconds. The two Rudall Rose and Carte flutes had the real makers stamp, but no serial number.