Cnat (for the D whistle as example) cross-fingering

[RPereira]

Dear Whistlers,

I have something for you to try if you want to experiment and provide me your information.

Using your different whistles, low or high, can you try yourself and tell me if the cross-fingering

0X0XXX can give you the same note as 0XX000?

If not, can you tell me how much differs from the in tune note?

I'm asking you this to check how much I'm deviating from the usual 0XX000 fingering.

Thank you very much for your patience!

Respectful regards.

[JTC111]

I'm asking you this to check how much I'm deviating from the usual 0XX000 fingering.

I've no idea what you're trying to figure out. Are you saying you're normally playing a Cnat using 0X0XXX and you want to know how much it's off compared to 0XX000? If that's the case, 0X0XXX is significantly and noticeably sharp. If that's not what you were going for, further explanation might help.

[MTGuru]

Your goal here isn't clear to me either, but here's a way to think about it.

The basic C-nat cross fingering is oxoooo - which is too sharp on nearly every whistle. So you need to place an additional finger or fingers below the closed note to bring the pitch down to where you want it.

In other words, the exact fingering depends on: 1. The individual whistle, 2. Your personal breath pressure, and 3. The pitch you prefer to use for C-nat (equal tempered, just, C-supernatural, etc.).

The fingering oxxooo is what most whistlers nowadays have come to expect as the "standard" C-nat cross fingering. If that doesn't work, you try any other combination that does work for you and your whistle: oxxxox oxoxxx oxxxxo etc. There is no right or wrong.

The problem with your "survey" question is that it doesn't yield any useful information. If 10 different people with 10 different random whistles give you 10 different answers ...

If you don't trust your ear and you want to know how your fingerings on your whistle affect the pitch, just check them with an electronic or software tuner like the Shakuhachi tuner and note the difference in cents. Then you can use those numbers as the basis for experimentation.

[JTC111]

Using your different whistles, low or high, can you try yourself and tell me if the cross-fingering 0X0XXX can give you the same note as 0XX000?

I went back and reread the original post. The above quote is probably the part that confuses me the most because I don't see how it could be possible to get the same note from those two fingerings. I don't own a whistle on which the former isn't sharper than the latter.

RP, you've got me stumped!

[jemtheflute]

What the Guru said, with the proviso that on the vast majority of off-the-shelf whistles, oxx ooo (the "standard" fingering) is itself sharp and one of the fingerings with added lower fingers is necessary, usually oxx xoo or oxx xox, though very few players bother! In my experience on many whistles, oxo xxx is far too sharp to be usable for 1st 8ve C nat on most, with the one exception of my Susato, for which it is the best, all the others being too flat, including oxx ooo. 2nd 8ve C nat is another question...... There is a very strong tendency ( generalisation alert!!!! ) for most ITM players (and fluters) to learn oxx ooo and use it regardless of its accuracy/suitability on a particular instrument - they just don't tend to be all that fussy!

[peeplj]

This may possibly not relate, presenting it as FYI-only.

On the Baroque flute (or traverso), both oxx|ooo and oxo|xxx are acceptable fingerings for C-natural in the first octave. Which you actually use depends on the surrounding notes and will usually be chosen to try to keep the interval as close to in tune as possible.

--James

[sbfluter]

On my flute 0X0XX0 or something like that sounds better. But I got so used to 0XX000 that I just can't do that. If I could go back to the beginning, I think I would force myself to use the other fingering just so it would be easier now on my flute, but hindsight and all that.

[chas]

This may possibly not relate, presenting it as FYI-only.

On the Baroque flute (or traverso), both oxx|ooo and oxo|xxx are acceptable fingerings for C-natural in the first octave. Which you actually use depends on the surrounding notes and will usually be chosen to try to keep the interval as close to in tune as possible.

Yep, it's always good to have a couple ways of doing things, based both on the logistics of the tune and the relative pitch of the notes surrounding it. In a fast tune nobody's going to notice the difference between OXX OOO and OXX XOX. In a slow tune record yourself using a couple different fingerings, play it back and see what sounds best. Also be aware that your use of breath will have an impact both on the pitch and clarity of the C natural.

[Flexismart]

When playing C natural, and while playing in general, I try to keep my bottom finger (D) down as much as possible, in an effort to A) keep my fingers close to the instrument and B) try to be in tune (which varies wildly from whistle to whistle, especially on the high C).

So, my normal C nat position is OXX OXX and high C would be OXX OOX or OXO XXO or OXO OOX. But this depends on the whistle, the blow, and whether overtones overtake the note. While tone and intonation are the most important aspects, when fingers are flying, I find it best to stay close to the whistle body.

Put the dog and/or the cat out and try several C nat positions to see what works best for you, then find a few tunes that you can use the note (perhaps in D mix), and practice, practice.......................

[RPereira]

1__

1. The individual whistle;
2. Your personal breath pressure;
3. The pitch you prefer to use for C-nat (equal tempered, just, C-supernatural, etc.).

Of course, the better fingering for a whistle depends on what MTGuru stated above

2__

“Using your different whistles, low or high, can you try yourself and tell me if the cross-fingering 0X0XXX can give you the same note as 0XX000?”

I asked this to see how much whistles can play in 0X0XXX or 0XX000. This question was to figured out, in the vast whistle repertoire, which fingering could predominate.

3__

“I'm asking you this to check how much I'm deviating from the usual 0XX000 fingering.”

I've no idea what you're trying to figure out. Are you saying you're normally playing a Cnat using 0X0XXX and you want to know how much it's off compared to 0XX000? If that's the case, 0X0XXX is significantly and noticeably sharp. If that's not what you were going for, further explanation might help.

Because, as sbfluter states:

“On my flute 0X0XX0 or something like that sounds better. But I got so used to 0XX000 that I just can't do that.”

In my case is the opposite way. I got used to the 0X0XXX.
It works better with my Dixon. For the Chieftains I found that both fingerings are acceptable; however, I choose the 0X0XXX because it is clear than the other. On the other hand, my Syn whistles play 0XXX00 or 0XXXX0 depending on the whistle, therefore, to work around the problem in using different positions in different whistles, I asked Mr. Bartlett to add a Cnat thumbhole.

4__

There is a very strong tendency ( generalisation alert!!!! ) for most ITM players (and fluters) to learn oxx ooo and use it regardless of its accuracy/suitability on a particular instrument - they just don't tend to be all that fussy!

Interesting: "strong tendency to learn oxx ooo", which is good to try to simplify things.
However is frightening to me: "regardless of its accuracy/suitability"!!

[lemccullough]

If you ever want to do a long or short roll ornament on the C natural – which is often done in Irish Traditional Music – you’ll want to play it like this starting from the top finger and going down: OXX OXX

Or like this: OXX XOX

In both of those C natural positions your fingers are set to play the ornament. And because the ornaments usually occur very rapidly, you won't be worrying that much about pitch.

Best,
L.E. McCullough

[MTGuru]

If you ever want to do a long or short roll ornament on the C natural

Ah, so you're a member of the jemtheflute C-roll school, not the MTGuru "We doan' play no steenkin' C-rolls" school.

One of these days Jem and I will settle this with sharpened whistles at 10 paces.

[jemtheflute]

No need....

[lemccullough]

I don't believe I'm a member of a school. I play C-natural rolls because they're played by other instruments in Irish traditional music when they play Irish traditional music.

And I want to play this music to its max just like the real guys.

check this: http://lemcculloughswhistleblog.wordpre ... ghts-pt-2/

It'll help cure your FOO -- Fear Of Ornamentation.

Best,
LE

[MTGuru]

It'll help cure your FOO -- Fear Of Ornamentation.

Thanks, LE ... There's no FOO to be cured on my part, only BAR -- Basic Aesthetic Reservations -- in this case. Just personal taste.

The bit about C-rolls is an inside joke between Jem and myself. Sorry if that didn't come across.