RTE publicizes need for pipemakers in Ireland

[KAD]

RTE Six One (the TV broadcast) just ran a news segment tonight on NPU's call for government funding to help preserve the craft of pipemaking. Given the budget situation in Ireland, who knows whether any money will be forthcoming, but it's nice to see the publicity, anyway. Good for NPU for getting the word out...

KAD

[PJ]

Well done NPU. There are few things left that are uniquely Irish and that are made in Ireland. The uilleann pipes must not go the same way as the shamrock (commercially grown in Wales), the hurley (again, most of the Ash comes from Wales) and Guinness (owned by Diageo, HQ in London).

[Mr.Gumby]

the hurley (again, most of the Ash comes from Wales)

A lot of the hurley manufacture has moved to Eastern Europe over the past ten years or so , especially Poland (see article) for a variety of reasons but mainly for the quality of the wood and the lack of good ash in Ireland.

[Podge]

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1083110

39 minutes in if RTE Player is available where you are.

[Brazenkane]

Indeed, there can be a lack of good ash in Ireland!

[rorybbellows]

What does it matter where pipes are made as long as the quality is maintained ? Are the pipes that Geoff Wooff made in Clare any better that the ones he now makes in France? Which would you prefer and set made by David Quinn in the USA or a set made by some have ago maker in Ireland?

RORY

[NJH07]

Hi everyone,

I almost never post on this forum but I try to follow up what is going on in the uilleann world.

I've been making uilleann pipes for 6 years now. I'm not known as I've been very discret in my activity, but I've been in touch with the "masters" to perfect my technics.

I've had the chance to "spend" some time with historical sets as Kenna's, Egan's, Coyne's, Harrington's, Rowsome's sets. This has been my way to learn what's a set of pipes and how to make good sets.

I have a nice workshop at home with all the facilities to produce 5 or 6 full sets a year but I don't have a commercial activity. I asked my self sometime ago if I would be ready to get in business but I've come to the conclusion that it's very difficult and asking many sacrificies. Despite the fact that making pipes is really great!

I think that the main constraints are :
- Commercial prices. Below 10 000€ per set, does it worth it? Some facts. I live in France, I make my pipes the traditional way, with hand rolled tubes, hand forged key work, hollow main stock etc...
- People buying uilleann sets have to understand they don't buy a piano! It's not perfect science. It's very difficult to understand people expectations and to traduce that into your work. Then, it's difficult for a maker to accept to deliver a set with compromises because you always want to reach perfection.
- Musicians are not autonomous regarding maintenance and reedmaking

It is possible to make sets for 6000€ but not with the old masters standards. One of the best evidence of what I'm saying is Mr Rogge price list and sets quality. He offers standard and delux sets.

This rises some questions: what do people want? how much are they ready to spend and for which level of quality?
From my contacts with musician, I would say that people are not really ready to spend more than 5000€ but they do want top notch quality.

This brings me to my conclusion towards the nice RTE segment in their news: they are I think more people that we would expect able to make good sets of pipes, but the commercial market only motivates the bravest people ready to "live little", without a lot of revenue. I really do respect these people.
I have the chance to very well know a breton instrument maker in Brittany. He's making traditional instruments as the uilleann pipes but it's much easier to live off this activity compared to uilleann pipes making. Market condition then.

Rise fonds to teach people, yes why not, help people succeeding in living off pipemaking would be for me the first step. If people are not ready to pay the real price of the craftmanship, they're other solution but I don't want to think about it because it would violate tradition.

That's just my personal opinion.

Nico


Below few pictures of my self made B set based on Egan.

[reedmasters]

Beautiful work!

[TheSilverSpear]

I appreciate the amount of time, craftsmanship, and money it takes to produce a full set of pipes, but does anyone have a solution to the fact that a lot of people simply cannot afford the 10,000 euro/pounds/dollars required to buy a really top quality full set.

[billh]

Hi Nico...

Out of the closet at last? Congratulations!

Extremely nice looking set. I look forward to hearing it one of these days.

Nice to see RTÉ running this story. Fortunately I can report that even in the current climate, government organizations such as The Department of Tourism Culture and Sport, the Arts Council, and the Craft Council of Ireland have been supportive of the ongoing NPU project (which has been dubbed "PipeCraft"). NPU is also doing its own additional fundraising for the project - donations gratefully accepted! - and numerous musicians have donated time, effort, and participated in benefit performances.

NPU have posted some status reports on their site and in The Snug discussion forum. I can report that the training facility is really starting to take shape now, so progress is taking place on this front.

As for prices of €10,000, that's a lot of money... but lots of music can be made on half sets or 3/4 sets which can reduce outlay substantially. Serious violin/fiddle players easily spend that much on an instrument; quality keyed timber flutes are not cheap either. The issue certainly seems a bit more severe with uilleann pipes, and the complexity of the instrument doesn't work in favor of either maker or purchaser's pocketbook, as NJH points out. But while arguably more severe, the problem is not unique to pipes, it affects many instruments that don't have a mass market.

A really good instrument should be a lifetime investment. I think that at present the availability problem is probably more serious than the price point, from the perspective of a dedicated prospective purchaser. If the instruments are available, even if at a fairly steep price, one can consider financial assistance/grants for promising young students and their cash-strapped families.

I do agree with Nico that the financial incentives for learning to make pipes are marginal. There is a challenge or risk that, even if a number of people can be successfully trained/mentored/assisted in learning to make quality instruments, a minority will be satisfied with the resulting pay scale. I think this point needs to be communicated to prospective students early on. I believe that there is a role for NPU in providing other kinds of support for pipemaking as well, along the lines NJH hints, in order to help make it an economically viable activity. I think that once success is demonstrated in providing educational and skills advancement resources for pipemaking, funding agencies will be open to the idea of helping support or even subsidize it as a cultural activity. Already I believe that substantial capital equipment funding may be available (depending on the circumstances) to help a new maker set up shop, which in turn reduces the financial burden on new makers.

With regard to where pipes are made, well there are surely advantages in making pipes in Ireland; however there are certainly disadvantages too. Ideally one would be relatively near one's customers. I believe that it's more expensive to make pipes in Ireland than in many other places where they are currently being made, and availability of materials is a constant hassle; there are also various adminstrative, legal, and logistical concerns wherever one lives. In these last respects I think that not only funding agencies but NPU and pipemakers themselves can potentially improve the situation through cooperative effort and sharing of information - another aspect of the larger aspiration to "support" the art and craft of pipemaking.

best regards,

Bill

P.S. - Some may consider the financial points pessimistic. I don't think so - a true pessimist would never attempt to make pipes in the first place. It may be that the natural arc of a pipemaker's development is to start out an optimist, and settle earthwards from there

[TheSilverSpear]

Are there such grants available?

[billh]

Are there such grants available?

Yes.

For instance, I believe LEADER funds are available for capital equipment, depending on where one is located:
http://www.pobail.ie/en/RuralDevelopmen ... eaderFAQs/

My understanding is that similar funds, (possibly from LEADER), may be available for appropriate training/tuition. I believe there's some reference to this in the NPU discussion as well.

I believe that Udarás funding has been availed of in the past, for pipemaking workshops located in gaeltacht areas.

[Mr.Gumby]

There's a link for the Music capital scheme on the NPU site. Here. Applications should be in before Nov 2nd.

Direct link to Music Network- application

[NJH07]

Out of the closet at last? Congratulations!

Hi Bill, and everyone,

I couldn't let this opportunity go without doing my coming out... I had to point out what seems crucial to me.
As you know because we discussed about it several times, I would be very happy in taking up pipemaking professionally but with certain conditions. I'm working at it but as a long term project. It's even more difficult when you have a good job. It would mean a complete change of life.

I do agree with Nico that the financial incentives for learning to make pipes are marginal. There is a challenge or risk that, even if a number of people can be successfully trained/mentored/assisted in learning to make quality instruments, a minority will be satisfied with the resulting pay scale.

I think it's a major risk. People have to know that getting out of pipemaking a net pay of 1500€ per month for at least 50 hours of work a week is an achivement. It takes 350 to 400 hours to make a full set of pipes depending on the "option". On top of that, learning by yourself is really challenging and will help to develop very fine skills for those who are perfectionist enough. Pipemaking is a craftmanship that has to be learned over a long period I think. It will allow to get fine skills to reach a very important level of detail that is very important. In fact, all the instrument makers I know have learned their craft over several years.
A course will solve the problem of the pipemaker number but the risk is to end up with a "standardisation" of the instrument while many kind of tone can be obtained with flat sets.

A really good instrument should be a lifetime investment. I think that at present the availability problem is probably more serious than the price point, from the perspective of a dedicated prospective purchaser. If the instruments are available, even if at a fairly steep price, one can consider financial assistance/grants for promising young students and their cash-strapped families.

Something that would never happened but that can really help would be to have NPU offering special loan to help people to pay for sets. This rises other question and issues, but again, I think the investment should be made to get pipemaker carrier attractive.

P.S. - Some may consider the financial points pessimistic. I don't think so - a true pessimist would never attempt to make pipes in the first place. It may be that the natural arc of a pipemaker's development is to start out an optimist, and settle earthwards from there

Making pipes on your spare time isn't satisfactory as it's very long to complete a full set and it takes extra motivation to go on.
But you keep being optimistic because each time you're able to work several days in a raw on an instrument it's so exiting!!

Nico

[djones]

The best way to preserve Irish piping, in my view, is to mass produce a quality product. Instruments need to be reasonably priced so musicians with modest means can have access to good instruments. The high price of uilleann pipes is a bigger barrier to encouraging piping than not enough pipers in a particular geographic location.

The hand-crafted thing is all fine and good, but as long as pipes are churned out slowly from long waiting lists by craftsmen here and there, the price will be high.

The most obvious flaw in this plan, of course, is assuming the demand is worth a mass production effort. Is the demand there?

I wonder if some technical improvements can be made to the instrument so that keeping it in good tone is no more effort than most other instruments. Or is this as good as pipes can get? Does a large double-reed just mean all this aggravation?

Uilleann pipes need to be less expensive and easier to obtain.