5 Tunes you Hate

[I.D.10-t]

What about Howe's 1,000 Jigs and Reels or Ryan's Mammoth Collection, 1050 Reels and Jigs?

[benhall.1]

Those two are dead easy to get, published by Mel Bay. T'other one - well, perhaps it's me, but I don't know the other, and I can't find it.

[hans]

I think so too, and that collection you mentioned sounds interesting. I've seen references to it, but can't seem to find it ...

http://www.amazon.com/Irish-Traditional ... 0977053024

It is not on amazon.co.uk

[benhall.1]

Well, that might explain why I couldn't find it. Thanks Hans.

[I.D.10-t]

Those two are dead easy to get, published by Mel Bay.

I was wondering more on how they worked in the tradition and if they were comparable to O'Neill's. I have Howe's, but that is all.

[benhall.1]

Ah, you'd have to do the research to answer that. I have views on it, but not terribly well backed up by actual knowledge. So, FWIW, I would say that Howe's and Ryan's would have more to do with an already established American tradition, whereas, although O'Neill seems to have borrowed some tunes (or transcribed new versions of them?) from the earlier collections, he was predominantly collecting from Irish musicians who happened to be in the States at that time. Boiling breakfast, I believe.

[Julia Delaney]

BTW, you should buy Miller and Perron's book while you can. I see that Amazon only has three left. The book has gone in and out of print over the years. You can also buy it directly from Randy, who is worth supporting, rather than from Gargantua.
I used to live in New Hampshire and have played with Randy Miller over the years. Jack Perron (co-author) became a tennis pro. Randy's brother, Rodney Miller, of whom you might have heard, is an esteemed fiddle maker as well as being a superb musician.

http://www.randymillerprints.com/fiddletunebooks.htm

There is also (Randy with the cap): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtCMcZiGZKs

and: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7xmz39zhSk

And Rodney: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxSv7QDN ... re=related and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E328Nq4gyno&NR=1

And returning to the OP, I see that on Rod Miller's CD the first tune is.... is.... a great contra dance tune.....
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/rodneymiller3
And for that it seems to work fine.

[Cathy Wilde]

That's neat background, JD; thanks! Larry has that Miller & Perron book and I always wondered what its story was. I figured they did a fair amount of contra dance playing as there's a somewhat "different"/American feel to some of the settings. Speaking of which, there are some really interesting settings & alternative takes in there (I mean that in a good way)!

[Doug_Tipple]

Why do you think that O'Neill's consists of "fiddle tunes", Doug? They're just tunes - for any instrument. They were collected from fiddlers, pipers, fluters and possibly others, but I haven't heard the recordings of those, if they exist.

And which edition are you uing, of which O'Neill's collection? I'm just interested, because, if it's the Miles Krassen, most of it's unplayable on any instrument.

I'm replying to your question after considerable discussion that has come before, yes, I do have the "O'Neill's Music of Ireland" by Miles Krassen, copyright 1976. On the cover of of the book in large bold letters, "Over 1,000 Fiddle Tunes" is printed, so that is why I made the reference to fiddle tunes, although I understand that they are simply tunes that can be played on a variety of melody instruments. I play the tunes with the fiddle, mandolin, and flute, none very well, I should add.

I have some learning disability when it comes to listening to someone talk or play music and being able to remember or process it fully. It is difficult for me to learn anything unless I have some visual reference. That is why I have been a life-long reader of written music, because I don't have to remember anything. Aware of my handicaps, I focus on my strengths and live mostly in the here-and-now.

I do like Rodney Miller's fiddle playing.

[Gordon]

And which edition are you uing, of which O'Neill's collection? I'm just interested, because, if it's the Miles Krassen, most of it's unplayable on any instrument.

I'm replying to your question after considerable discussion that has come before, yes, I do have the "O'Neill's Music of Ireland" by Miles Krassen, copyright 1976. On the cover of of the book in large bold letters, "Over 1,000 Fiddle Tunes" is printed, so that is why I made the reference to fiddle tunes, although I understand that they are simply tunes that can be played on a variety of melody instruments. I play the tunes with the fiddle, mandolin, and flute, none very well, I should add.

Not to get into it any further, but the Krassen book (which I accidentally purchased, early on) is a disaster. His attempts at teaching (presumably Sligo fiddle) ornaments often leave the tune incomplete - how to know what the bare bones of a tune are when he's got you rolling through parts that once were melodies? And often in settings I've never heard anyone else use (although, to be fair, I learned most of my settings from E. Galway sources). The original O'Neill's collections, 1000 Jigs and Reels, and Music of Ireland (much crossover there) are a fantastic resource; not perfect, but not some academic's idea of how Irish is supposed to be played, either.

[johnkerr]

Those two are dead easy to get, published by Mel Bay.

I would only trust a tune setting if it came from the Miltown Mel Bay. But maybe that's just me.

[Akiba]

As the OP, continue any and all side conversations at will. Doesn't bother me a bit. Carry on.

[MTGuru]

As the OP, continue any and all side conversations at will. Doesn't bother me a bit. Carry on.

As you wish. And continuing the derailment in gentle defense of Krassen ...

Back in the pre-Amazon Dark Ages of 1977, between the Pax Romana of the folk scare and the Riverdance Renaissance, finding an Irish tunebook locally in Nowhere, USA was as likely as tripping over the holy grail. Then, thanks to both Krassen and to Oak's commitment to never-very-profitable folk music publishing, the O'Neill's edition appeared, and the heavens parted. For a poor student like me just starting out, $6.95 for a compendium of this size and typographic quality, indexed and annotated - and available - was a real god-send.

I think it's easy for younger players now in an age of instant internet glut and gratification to see only the faults, and it's ungracious. Technically, Coleman's recordings were crap by today's standards, but you judge them by their merits in historical context. Editorially, Krassen's pedagogical license suited the times in a way, and Rabbi Krassen might be the first to say he'd have done it differently now.

No, it wouldn't be my first choice today. But honestly, the written-out ornament was very helpful to me and others first coming to grips with Irish style. Today, any experienced player is going to look past written ornamentation suggestions anyway. And if you can't intuit the underlying melody from Krassen's written-out rolls, yer doing it wrong. It's just as likely that O'Neill's original informants sometimes played rolls where he chose to transcribe them melodically. So which mistake do you prefer?

Finally, when it comes to reading 100+ year old photo reprints vs. Krassen's typography, my aging eyes might thank me for choosing the latter for a quick check of a tune.

[Cathy Wilde]

The Krassen was the first book I was able to get my hands on, too -- at a festival somewheres, I think.

I've always found it useful and have been very grateful for it and Krassen's efforts over the years. But then again, I never rely on one setting if I can help it. You just never know what people are going to play, and I figure it helps me better understand the tune if I look at it from some different angles anyway. It's the same as listening to different recordings, isn't it?

[benhall.1]

I don't think it's "ungracious" to point out the serious flaws in the Krassens book. And I'm no youngster. I bought that book soon after it first came out. I thought at first that it was interesting that he had tried to transcribe the ornaments. I tried for ages to decipher what he had written and make sense of it in terms of the actual ornaments that players of Irish trad play, but it's a hopeless task. They're just not right.

The other thing - the main thing, really - that I don't like about it is the pretense that it's an "updated" version of O'Neill's. It isn't. In effect, it's a new collection of tunes written out in a way that even the people whose playing he transcribed didn't play. He makes that quite clear in the introduction. It's also fairly obvious if you try to play many of the tunes. Well, how you can get the tune that his musicians did play from that is beyond me.

I know I didn't do the work that Krassens did, and that's where, I guess, the charge of being "ungracious" comes from. But my point is that the work is misguided in its concept, and the results show that.