pipes in kit form ?

[rorybbellows]

A lot of pipers would be into having a go at making their own pipes. Would there be a market for part made pipes in a kit form like other have done for bellows and would pipemakers be willing to do it ? It could be something as simple as a bored and reamed out piece of whatever kind of wood that just needs turning and tone holes drilled or a whole kit with metal parts and mounts included.

RORY

[PJ]

David Daye may have already thought of that.

[rgouette]

I've heard there's actually not a lot of money to be made in Uilleann pipe making..

I suspect that figure would be even less, when all the phone calls & e-mails start rolling in to the supplier with folks asking the bazillion questions about the kits...

I wonder if that would figure into the picture?

just a thought.

[rorybbellows]

I've heard there's actually not a lot of money to be made in Uilleann pipe making..

I suspect that figure would be even less, when all the phone calls & e-mails start rolling in to the supplier with folks asking the bazillion questions about the kits...

Good points,so would providing an extra service that should not be very time consuming be a good way to earn extra cash, especially if the pipemaker had an apprentice who as a form of practise could carry out the work.It is also an awlful waste of the pipemakers resources to have spent time making reamers and only use them to make maybe half a dozen chanters .
I know if Geoff Wooff or David Quinn were providing this service I’d be first to buy one.
Regarding the phone calls, I think it would have to be a condition of purchase that you cant contact the maker for instruction on finishing the chanter.All the measurements you need like tonehole location and so on would be included and so you would be on your own in that respect. But that’s not to say you couldn’t get help from others.I recently got table legs turned by a local wood turner for 10 euro each ,he is a very skilled turner and would have no problem turning the outside of a chanter . Getting toneholes drilled by your local precision engineer would also be an option.

Maybe some pipemakers provide this service, I,ve never heard of any doing it ,but it would be a good way of by-passing the mega-long waiting lists and potentially ending up with a good chanter.

RORY

[vanfleet]

Of course, the potential is also there for a newby with two left thumbs to butcher their "David Quinn chanter kit," and then show up at a tionol boasting "hey, look at my David Quinn chanter." Offering a kit comes with a certain level of responsibility for the finished product, no matter how many disclaimers you put on it. Reputation enters into it . . .
JVF

[Tony]

If you've seen photos of Seth Gallagher's workshop you can see many of the parts were made in batches. So it's conceivable a maker like Seth who has apprentices making parts to exacting specifications could package a 'do-it-yourself' Uilleann kit. That would get you 85-90% done.

I recall seeing some bellows kits (maybe Davy Stephenson's website) where the clappers were shaped and drilled (for hand stitching) and the leather parts precut. All the fabricated sub-parts were already made, brass strap holders and hinge plates were already cut, drilled and shaped. With detailed instructions any good craftsman could put these bellows together.

One cannot compare the difficulty level of bellows assembly versus an entire set. There is so much that goes into pipemaking that the 'wannabe' kit assembler shouldn't/wouldn't want to touch. For example: Seamless hand made ferrules, 180 degree bass drone tubing.

Basic pipmaking... It's not out of the realm if the right parts are available.

What's next? Jedi DIY light sabre kits?

[billh]

If you've seen photos of Seth Gallagher's workshop you can see many of the parts were made in batches. So it's conceivable a maker like Seth who has apprentices making parts to exacting specifications could package a 'do-it-yourself' Uilleann kit. That would get you 85-90% done.

Seth doesn't have apprentices making parts anymore. And it really isn't as straightforward as that, even if one did. There are so many issues with this notion I don't know where to begin; one important one being that there's more to a good chanter than reaming out the right shape and drilling some toneholes in the right places - no matter how meticulously one does it. This is one more reason why the Mid-East Mfg's of the world will not tap into the high-end or mid-range (i.e. "actually works properly") market, even if they start paying closer attention to things like wood seasoning and tonehole placement. Being an experienced player and reedmaker would increase the chances of success, but this doesn't seem to be the market (experienced players and reedmakers) that Rory had in mind.

The fact that successful makers aren't doing this themselves, i.e. making production runs of parts and having them assembled by non-pipemakers, is evidence that it isn't a runner. I just don't think you can reduce a chanter to a paint-by-numbers kit and have good outcomes. Even David Daye, who has come closest to attempting this idea, recommends that purchasers of his "penny-chanter" "kit" purchase a finished reed from him - and of course the nontraditional construction techniques and materials may make this a little easier for the novice. All that said, almost all of the working penny chanters I've seen were fully pre-assembled.

I also agree with JVF's observation. While the idea of leaving all maintenance, reedmaking, and voicing to the customer has some appeal , it would not do much for one's reputation. What respected pipemaker in his right mind would want to do it?

Bill

[Tony]

The fact that successful makers aren't doing this themselves

Maybe you don't consider David Daye successful...
I'm guessing, but I would say a few hundred of his chanters have been put together by novices.
His drone kit should be just as successful.

I think Rory was just speculating the feasibility... my thought is yes, it is possible.
Practical? maybe not... surly you wouldn't think it would be a 'new trend' for pipemakers wishing to shorten their wait time by offering 'the less difficult parts assemblies' sent unfinished.

Pipers seem to be people who enjoy tinkering... maybe a poll on the subject would solicit responses/viewpoints from players and not pipemakers....

[billh]

Polls on this forum are pretty unenlightening, unless you're into pop psychology or sociology. They reflect people's aspirations and fantasies better than they reflect reality IMO.

I am not running down penny-chanters - properly assembled, they are working instruments that meet a need and they have their strengths and weaknesses. From that perspective a "kit" for a half set of pipes already exists. Individual pipers can, and do, decide whether that kit meets their needs.

Doing this with traditional materials and assembly techniques is a whole different kettle of fish.

I don't particularly like to be negative, but it would bug me to leave this thread unchallenged, lest some newcomers assume that there's agreement about it being a reasonable idea. From a maker's perspective I can say that it doesn't make sense, and most of the time would not give a good outcome in my opinion.

In my experience, making the pieces isn't the hard part.

There. Throw the tomatoes if you wish, I know some of you will. I think I've said my peace on the matter.

[rorybbellows]

I think Rory was just speculating the feasibility... my thought is yes, it is possible.

Just an idea that I thought might be worth discussing and I was wondering why more pipemakers are not doing it
The reason I think is that pipemakers reputations are very important to them and so would probably not want to risk damaging that reputation .If they were in it purely for the money maybe they would do it.
Maybe they could alter the terms of the deal to make it more workable. They could bore the chanter send it to the customer who turns it and drills the holes,the pipemaker could then voice it for a “ consultancy fee” or something also those lines .Each sale could be tailored to the skill level of the customer. Its just an idea that maybe a beginning pipemaker want like to try.

Regarding the voiceing process,this seams to be another one of those thing that even the “experts” cant agree on, some makers reckon that things have to be done the holes to get them to play in tune and with good tone but others have a different opinion. Heres the opinion of one reputable maker I found on the other forum
“If an instrument is made well using set gauges to set the throat, reed socket, cone etc and everything is in their correct places, on each and every instrument that is made, so they are as identical to each other as possible, then there will be very little voicing to be done”

One slightly off the point question would be does the present system work ,the one that has been in operation for the last two hundred years ,the one where a lone pipemaker works on his own in his workshop? You might say its been going for two hundred years so it must work, but remember at one time it nearly died out. Does the way pipemakers work need to evolve?
Its great to see NPU are running a pipemaking school, maybe there’s an opportunity there to try a different way.How about a team of makers that specialise in each operation in making pipes, one to bore ,one to turn ,one to voice and so on.
The way I see it the main obstacle to getting a quality set is the long waiting time that is perpetuated by lone craftsman.


RORY

[Tony]

Bill, you sound like a politician replying to a group of voters who want smaller government.

Kinda like The Wizard Of Oz... Nevermind that man behind the curtain.
If it hadn't been for David Daye proving it can be done, everyone would subscribe to the same thought.

[Hans-Joerg]

The way I see it the main obstacle to getting a quality set is the long waiting time that is perpetuated by lone craftsman.

I think the word "quality" is the problem: Everybody has a different conception of it. While I´m at it: Here is an older (3 1997) "An Piobaire"-article (PDF) that represents a high conception of it (and should have caused "controversy")

http://yfrog.com/f/1nmcleodartc1j/
http://yfrog.com/f/m9mcleodartc2j/
http://yfrog.com/f/n6mcleodartc3j/
http://yfrog.com/f/mhmcleodartc4j