Guidelines for avoiding inappropriate posts

[Dale]

I've been asked to clarify my policies, if you will, regarding inappropriate messages on the Chiff & Fipple boards. Specifically, there are two categories in question--abusive attack messages and commercial messages. Let me begin by saying that I remain proud of the fact that these are rather active and busy boards and there are remarkably few problems in either area.

Let me also say that on those rare occasions I've had to step in and delete a message, someone often cites free speech concerns. I'm all for free speech. But, these message boards are not public property and it isn't a place where total freedom of self-expression exists. . I think that a better analogy is that this is a social gathering in one's home and the home owner and host reserves the right to turn away solicitors at the door and also to require a rude guest to leave.

First, regarding "abusive" or "attack" messages or flames. The balance here is, of course, between allowing people to interact freely, on the one hand, and being personal and abusive in their attacks. I have erred more than once in both directions: Deleting a message which probably should have been left up and allowing messages that made me uncomfortable 'remain. I make this suggestion: Anytime you are moved to be negative or critical of someone, or you have a problem with someone, try to deal with it first in private email or other private communication. If you can't resolve it, I'm willing to try to mediate. In public messages, DO NOT, please, use abusive language and name-calling. Avoid categorical language such as "you never", "you always," etc.

Regarding use of the board to promote one's commercial interests. This is not as straightforward as it may appear. A poster who frequently promotes his or her own business, criticizes or discourages competitor's businesses, offers special deals, and so on, is stepping over the line. On the other hand, I don't want to discourage private individuals from selling whistles to each other. If someone wants to sell a Copeland, there's no better forum for making that known and I regard that kind of thing as a good service. I also don't particularly object to a business owner using the forum to announce a new product, for example. This is also more likely to be a welcome when the business owner balances the occasional "advertisement" with lots of other messages that are helpful and entirely noncommercial. In other words, when the person has proven himself or herself to be a good contributor to the community. If, on the other hand, the majority of the person's posts include a pitch for business, this is unwelcome and will be deleted. Again, I would encourage people to use me in this regard. If you want to post something about your business, and you are unclear if it would be welcome, run it by me. I might well post a message myself that says something like "Hey, guess what, Billy Ray Johnson over at WhistleWorld is carrying Acme whistles now." That will be better received by readers than a message directly posted by the vendor.

I hope this helps. Thanks to everyone for maintaining a (generally) civil and helpful forum.

Dale Wisely

[talasiga]

I've been asked to clarify my policies, if you will, regarding inappropriate messages on the Chiff & Fipple boards. Specifically, there are two categories in question--abusive attack messages and commercial messages. Let me begin by saying that I remain proud of the fact that these are rather active and busy boards and there are remarkably few problems in either area.

Let me also say that on those rare occasions I've had to step in and delete a message, someone often cites free speech concerns. I'm all for free speech. But, these message boards are not public property and it isn't a place where total freedom of self-expression exists. . I think that a better analogy is that this is a social gathering in one's home and the home owner and host reserves the right to turn away solicitors at the door and also to require a rude guest to leave.

First, regarding "abusive" or "attack" messages or flames. The balance here is, of course, between allowing people to interact freely, on the one hand, and being personal and abusive in their attacks. I have erred more than once in both directions: Deleting a message which probably should have been left up and allowing messages that made me uncomfortable 'remain. I make this suggestion: Anytime you are moved to be negative or critical of someone, or you have a problem with someone, try to deal with it first in private email or other private communication. If you can't resolve it, I'm willing to try to mediate. In public messages, DO NOT, please, use abusive language and name-calling. Avoid categorical language such as "you never", "you always," etc.
.........................

Thanks for enunciating that so clearly, Dale.

Peace.

[Steampacket]

Thanks for that Dale,

Is it inappropiate do you think to post on this forum about interesting flutes for sale on E-bay or other sites?

I'm asking as during the last few days two C&F members have mailed me privately and asked if I would refrain from posting about a couple of flutes as they didn't want everyone/people on this forum bidding on flutes they themselves were interested in acquiring.

My natural reaction if I see an interesting flute up for sale/auction is to post about it here (if no one else has) so that any interested parties are alerted, the flute can be discussed, and may the best man win. Now is this alright or not? I'll abide by your decision.

Regarding a remark I made, which resulted in a recent trainwreck of a controversy, am I correct in assuming that any questioning, or criticism of a C&F member's wares is forbidden?

[jemtheflute]

during the last few days two C&F members have mailed me privately and asked if I would refrain from posting about a couple of flutes as they didn't want everyone/people on this forum bidding on flutes they themselves were interested in acquiring.

Not on-topic to Dale's OP, but this is a serious point - to the extent that (IMO) anyone making such a request is really being hopelessly naive and failing to appreciate the irrelevance of their request/attitude. Those among us who are either regular dealers/collectors or are seriously on the look-out for something specific as a one-off will have regular eBay trawls (if they know what they're doing) and will quite certainly see almost everything that comes through on eBay, apart maybe from a very occasional miss due to poor wording of a listing. Drawing the attention of the Forum at large to these items for sale will make very little difference to whether anyone here is intending to bid on a particular one, or to competition between members here. Sure, if I'm especially interested in an item I kinda hope no-one else will notice it and don't initiate a thread on it, but I know perfectly well that is unlikely to make any difference and I don't get the hump or worry unduly if someone else does flag it up. Likewise if it becomes apparent (rare) that I am in a bidding war with anyone here - each bidder will have their own limit whether we "know" each other here or not, and the auction result won't often be much affected. The really desirable things will get their fair share of attention regardless.

The (mostly) "for interest's sake" watchers like yourself, Steampacket, and Radcliffe and Kevin Krell and (most of the time) myself et al. see most of what crops up, and so do the regular buyers like Jon C, David M and (some of the time) myself. Attempted cartel behaviour such as you describe is (in this context) pretty pointless. If I want from academic interest to post about a current eBay flute, I do so, and whilst I know there may be members/friends here who are potentially bidding, I reckon they all know the minor publicity here is not very likely to affect the auction outcome significantly. If they think otherwise, a) they're probably wrong and b) tough!

If I received a request such as you describe, probably out of friendship and manners I wouldn't deliberately initiate publicity about their desideratum, but I wouldn't refrain from discussion if someone else "broke" it, and I might point out to them the redundancy of their request! I don't think the Forum needs (nor could practicably have) rules about this!

[Rob Sharer]

Regarding a remark I made, which resulted in a recent trainwreck of a controversy, am I correct in assuming that any questioning, or criticism of a C&F member's wares is forbidden?

I know Dale will eventually provide an official answer, but meanwhile, could you POSSIBLY think that it would be good form to do that sort of thing here?!? Legalistic quibbling aside, what a thing to be known for.


Rob

[crookedtune]

I'll go with Jem on this one. I bid low on the Murray and lost. If it was because the auction got press on C&F, so be it. Other times, I've been the one to benefit.

But then, I'm one of those nut jobs who thought the Proctology forum was all good fun, and still misses Peter Laban.

[Doug_Tipple]

You'all are probably aware that Dale's post was from 2001. Talasiga dug it up from the past. Not that the post is no longer relevant, but there have been a lot of years in between where the flute forum has been going along without many incidents that I know of. The moderators are fairly quick to edit, move or remove any posts that they deem inappropriate.

[Steampacket]

"I know Dale will eventually provide an official answer, but meanwhile, could you POSSIBLY think that it would be good form to do that sort of thing here?!? Legalistic quibbling aside, what a thing to be known for." Rob

Nothing I wish make a habit of Rob, I can assure you, but occassionally a relevant question does crop up

[LorenzoFlute]

Off topic, I know:
I am one of the two that contacted Steampacket. The truth is, good deals on items you're interested in are very rare. Probably most of the regular buyers can pay more than others because they can restore flutes, instead of paying somebody else for the job. Other people may have a regular job and the money to buy. I don't fall in neither of the two categories. How many chances do I have to get a good flute at a price I can afford? Not many at all. Maybe opening a thread on the flute I'm interested in wouldn't change anything, but maybe it would, you can't be sure. Am I all that naive for at least trying? Maybe, but who knows...

[Rob Sharer]

"I know Dale will eventually provide an official answer, but meanwhile, could you POSSIBLY think that it would be good form to do that sort of thing here?!? Legalistic quibbling aside, what a thing to be known for." Rob

Nothing I wish make a habit of Rob, I can assure you, but occassionally a relevant question does crop up

I get it, man, but when I get the urge I bite my tongue. There are things that come up for sale here that I would never suggest to anyone, or whose asking price is out of touch with reality. All the same, I stay out of public discussion of such in the very thread where these items are being offered. Not surprisingly, I do get the odd PM with a question about items that come up for sale; in this case, I feel more free to give my honest assessment.


Rob

[keithsandra]

Even if it's a re-post, I think Dale's message is sensible and relevant today.

The only thing missing is a warning not be be libellous, the serious legal implications of which some of our immature posters might not care about or know of, but Moderators should. Publishers are also legally liable for publishing libels.

Personally, I'd like to see political statements and idealogies banned from CnF too. As someone has already pointed out, they're nothing to do with fluting (or whistling).

Onwards and upwards,

Keith.

[Casey Burns]

I wonder if maybe there should be a forum on C&F simply for commercial posts? Where makers can announce things, discuss what they are doing and brag about it, etc. without breaching etiquette.

As a maker I try not to sound like I am bragging etc. but try to provide factual info based on my experiences. I think most others do the same - but then I haven't seen the deleted posts.

Also, I wish the Flute Forum was used for discussing flutes. Not as a place to sell everything. Those posts should go to the For Sale forum. I'd rather discuss flutes, than wade through all the posts by people now trying to discard them!

Casey

[Unseen122]

Even if it's a re-post, I think Dale's message is sensible and relevant today.

I'd have to agree whole-heartedly with this statement. Having been on the wrong side of negative comments on the forum a couple years ago; it is not a fun experience. In retrospect I may have deserved it; although it was done in a completely terrible manner and the same point could have been made to me in private instead of being made into a public affair. If you want to make a negative comment about someone think about it from their perspective and how you would feel to be publicly insulted or undermined. Of course if one person does it anyone can continue with the discussion and take sides until a mod steps in. In my case this forum hasn't really been the same for me since then, but that is all history and I think all involved have gotten over it (I at least hope so).

On another note I think Casey's idea for a separate forum for commercial posts isn't a bad idea...

[Julia Delaney]

In my kitchen we have some pretty lively debates, and often there is some rancor involved. Hopefully it gets resolved. There isn't anything wrong with very heated discussions. This is part of the culture in which I grew up, which is different from the culture where anger and a free expression of ideas is not acceptable. There is of course something wrong when people are needlessly cruel to each other.

I don't think fluting is as removed from the world as people think, or as they might wish. Before being a musician I am a human being and I feel an obligation to speak out against injustice or violations of human rights. Music, especially our music, does not take place in a vacuum. It is, at its best, part of a social occasion taking place within a larger society.

[Steve Bliven]

I don't think fluting is as removed from the world as people think, or as they might wish. Before being a musician I am a human being and I feel an obligation to speak out against injustice or violations of human rights. Music, especially our music, does not take place in a vacuum. It is, at its best, part of a social occasion taking place within a larger society.

On the other hand, I can get all the discussions I need on injustice or violations of human rights, politics, religion or other larger societal issues in lots of other places. And I can get them in a face-to-face medium where facial expression, gestures, etc. help clarify meanings in a way not generally available via the internet (even with a wide array of emoticons). Because of their brevity, forum postings and e-mails have the potential to lead to misunderstandings of both meaning and intent.

I recognize that flutes do not exist in a vacuum (only spherical cows do that) but this is the "Flute Forum" and I come here for material related to flutes.

Best wishes.

Steve