Boxwood Rudall & Rose nr: 4764 on e-bay

[Steampacket]

The flute being in Hereford, if I had bid and won then I'd ask Mr. Wilkes if I could leave the flute at his workshop for a look over, and place an order for a Wilkes head joint and barrel. I'd use that with the flute and ask if the original head was worth repairing as regards time, effort and cost or if it would be more prudent to leave it as it is.

Has anyone had a patent head mechanism repaired? I understand it's not easy and a lot of work. What could it cost, 1.000 sterling or more?

[radcliff]

And if was me, it would take a couple or more years than a long weekend

[jemtheflute]

Aanvil, I agree, I thought it was headed higher..... given its condition and the current market cachet on boxwood R&Rs, it's a pretty decent price even if the head is beyond repair (and the pictures and commentary don't tell us how bad it is, just that it isn't working and the wood is out of place). I mean, we know folks who'd place a £5k tag on such a flute in full working order........ I would too.
Steampacket - agreed re: your plan - if it was mine that's exactly what I'd do!

[Jon C.]

The flute being in Hereford, if I had bid and won then I'd ask Mr. Wilkes if I could leave the flute at his workshop for a look over, and place an order for a Wilkes head joint and barrel. I'd use that with the flute and ask if the original head was worth repairing as regards time, effort and cost or if it would be more prudent to leave it as it is.

Has anyone had a patent head mechanism repaired? I understand it's not easy and a lot of work. What could it cost, 1.000 sterling or more?

Do we know if it is a Patent head?
I am working on one right now, not a big deal.

[jemtheflute]

Yes, Jon, we know it's a PH - was deducible from the pictures but the added comments made it clear. Surely PH repair depends on extent of damage, viz your recent cannibalisation job..... if the guide lug is ripped off and the inner copper tube is twisted and mangled, it could be rather a nasty job, major engineering work to replace if no "spare" parts to hand!.... But the wording was "seized up" and we know the wooden head sleeve is twisted out of place - which doesn't necessarily entail bad twisting to the mechanism. In any case the brass head screw mechanism is pretty tough. I think from Terry's page on them that disassembling the barrel, especially if it isn't damaged, could be a bad job if necessary.

[Jon C.]

Yes, Jon, we know it's a PH - was deducible from the pictures but the added comments made it clear. Surely PH repair depends on extent of damage, viz your recent cannibalisation job..... if the guide lug is ripped off and the inner copper tube is twisted and mangled, it could be rather a nasty job, major engineering work to replace if no "spare" parts to hand!.... But the wording was "seized up" and we know the wooden head sleeve is twisted out of place - which doesn't necessarily entail bad twisting to the mechanism. In any case the brass head screw mechanism is pretty tough. I think from Terry's page on them that disassembling the barrel, especially if it isn't damaged, could be a bad job if necessary.

Quite true, but I would imagine that it sheared off the guide, and distorted the outer tub, but that is still repairable. Making a new outer sleeve, would not be very difficult. I doubt the brass screw is stripped, it is pretty heavy duty. If t was my flute, I would opt fro a new head joint also, a patent head on a boxwood flute would be very head heavy!

[RudallRose]

i've read the postings and don't see how you've deduced it's a PH. Did i miss something?
On the database, this was a section of flutes that did have milled crowns but were not PH mechanisms. Largely were to match crown with foot caps.

i should note i did not win the flute.

it will need extensive work.

[Jon C.]

i've read the postings and don't see how you've deduced it's a PH. Did i miss something?
On the database, this was a section of flutes that did have milled crowns but were not PH mechanisms. Largely were to match crown with foot caps.

i should note i did not win the flute.

it will need extensive work.

I agree Dave, I have seen Rudalls' with the silver patent crown, and foot cap, and not being a PH. The head is quite narrow to be a PH.

[Thalatta]

I think the assumption that it was a PH was based not only on the photos of the cap, but also on the cracks in the wood which suggest the head was twisted off, locking the tuning slide and cracking in different places around the head, in a twisted formation. There's a also a suspicious copper-looking band between the wood and the tuning slide which suggests some kind of extra stuff going on beyond the slide. Looked like a nice one though, I'm sure with it we'd feel like "the man with the wooden flute", no?

[Steampacket]

"I've read the postings and don't see how you've deduced it's a PH. Did i miss something?" David M.

Apparently, as someone in Hereford with not a little knowledge of Rudalls has viewed and reviewed the flute in situ according to the ebay information divulged by the seller.

Thalatta, the copper band has nothing to do with the patent head, it is one of two copper bands used by the sellers father to secure the flute to the wall for twenty years. The second copper band can be seen at the foot joint tenon in the second photo

[jemtheflute]

Re: Patent Head on this flute:
Apart from the pictures - the original ones made a PH seem likely on grounds of the end caps, though not certain, I agree, but the additional photos made it clearer - the wording in the revised eBay blurb (presumably based on the info from the mystery advisor) seems clear enough:

On 11-Aug-10 at 21:40:48 BST, seller added the following information:

I have revised this owing to someone with knowledge given me from looking at the flute . Although the keys look brown this just due to nicotine stains and I have carefully cleaned one of the keys up and all are sterling silver and it is boxwood. All the collars/joints are also appear to be sterling silver lined. The pewters are in perfect condition. The foot keys are not working and the pads are all original but some are missing, and all are orginal ancient leather purse pads,all of which are not working. The patent head is not working order but not owing to when someone had turned the head and cracked the top end of the flute as shown in the photo. The embrouche hole has been 3/4 covered but is perfect in original condition (slightly on the large side) also by someone overturning the patent head, it does look to be seized and has made a crack as shown in the photo, there aslo is a smaller hairline crack but not belived to be due to the forcing of the patent head, so it is unplayable, however it is believed with expert hands, it is deemed possibly NOT irrepairible. The isnt a guarantee as I am no expert, but I have told you this to alleviate any dispute after its bought. The body is 99% perfect and one tiny crack in the E flat / C sharp block. The barrel is perfect, and on the end cap is also sterling silver. It does needs a good clean up. The box wood has not shrunk and in very good condition. I have to included a shot with the embrouchure hole, to prove there is no splits near the embrouchre hole. All the parts are stamped with rudall and rose, so it is a complete flute. There is no case with the flute. The overall length is 66.5 cm (slide closed) which has been measured against a another rudall and rose flute, which plays perfectly with at A = 440 with normal slide extension. I have had 3 independent valuations of all are circa 2.2k upwards mark including Bonhams of London. I will not sell this at buy it now offers. I am a fair and honest man forwhich I wish a fair price for it! The person whom viewed it described it as beautiful. Good luck to all concerned. Happy bidding.

[RudallRose]

I can't agree, Jem. It appears from the seller's own verbage that someone had a look (not in person, but on the photos) to determine it was a Patent Head.

I've seen PHs that were twisted. Several. The wood does not split in that manner. The mechanism turns and snaps but not the wood. The split in this wood suggests shrinkage, as is normal, not twisting..
Besides, if any piece were to go bad on a twisting action it would be the barrel. Usually it is. And a frozen headpiece would not allow for someone to see if it's a PH or not, though I must say I've never yet seen a PH frozen in place from the usual saliva/tobacco/crud mix that causes that. The grease in between the slides prevents this.

Read the man's notes carefully and you'll see he's repeating what was parlayed to him. Again, I don't suspect someone saw the flute in person but guessed.

More importantly....there is one tell-tale sign of a patent head that I do not see in the photos: the two screw heads in the crown. The photo is not that clear, but I still cannot see them in the location they typically are found.

Whomever won it will likely provide us the insight since all of this is speculation based on some pretty good history.

dm

[jemtheflute]

Fair enough if you will, David, though I read the vendor's blurb as implying an actual in-the-flesh viewing, specifically these bits (reading carefully!):

"I have revised this owing to someone with knowledge given me from looking at the flute..." (not "at the pictures").

"The person who(m) viewed it..."

"has been measured against a another rudall and rose flute, which plays perfectly with at A = 440 with normal slide extension".

Agreed he was rehashing what he'd been told, though, in rather imperfect English.

And I think one can make out screws (under the gunk) here, though admittedly the pic is poor quality even edited as best I can (I've no "sharpen" function), so not conclusive.

[RudallRose]

well, i'll have to say the photo, touched up, does indicate the presence of the screws.....still.....there is the matter of other flutes in the serial number sequence havign PH caps without the mechanism.
nevertheless.....in all, a good price -- though I was unwilling to shell out 3700US on a "maybe" flute

[Steampacket]

David you're just repeating the info given by the seller on ebay. The expert who viewed the flute told the seller that the cracks were not caused by turning the PH too far:

"The patent head is not working order but not owing to when someone had turned the head and cracked the top end of the flute as shown in the photo. The embrouche hole has been 3/4 covered but is perfect in original condition (slightly on the large side) also by someone overturning the patent head, it does look to be seized and has made a crack as shown in the photo, there aslo is a smaller hairline crack but not belived to be due to the forcing of the patent head,..."

The expert who examined the flute is the foremost living expert on Rudall flutes and I'm confident he'd recognise a PH if he saw one. Jem's blow up of the head joint photo clearly shows one of the screws in the crown. It's a patent head, just accept the fact and try to live with it as best as possible