So how do you....

[Hotblack]

Thanks for your explanation Steve. However I have one or two.....errr.........quibbles??.....well maybe not but here's my opinion at this stage of my whistle playing.

You should be using your ears to tell you where your fingers should be right from the outset.

I don't disagree with that.

If you know your way round your instrument this should become second nature.

Indeed. But we all have to start somewhere. Maybe after years of experience this comes, but when you're only a few months in, this is rather more difficult. Surely using the dots helps in that learning process. I certainly does for me.

Using notation or tablature to tell you where you fingers should be (or, in the case of harmonica players, which is what I know most about, where your mouth should be and whether you should be sucking or blowing) is just about the most tedious thing I can imagine.

Tedious to you maybe Steve, but I find it very useful.

You are giving yourself a burdensome and unnecessary extra task. It will slow down your learning by 90%,

I haven't found this to be true so far. Maybe in the future as I become more accomplished this may be true.

your playing will be mechanical and you will not be secure hearing versions that differ from the one you've "learned."

Again I agree. But only to some degree. If you use the dots to learn the basics and then hone the tune with others you soon pick up the swing and expression required. The tune evolves as you learn it, from basic and, as you say, mechanical, to expressive. Certainly when I first played Inisheer it was just the notes. Now I can play with a bit of feeling and emotion. That's through practice and playing with others. I used the dots to get my fingers around the tune first.

Your ear should be your number one tool in telling you what notes to play. Unlike dots or tab, your ears are responsive, adaptable, flexible and very close to your brain and very used to working with it to interpret sounds. And they're free. Use 'em!

Again I agree wholeheartedly. It just takes time and patience to get there.

[SteveShaw]

If you don't know your way round your instrument with the full security that will give you the ability to learn tunes by ear, just play simple tunes on it that you already know for now. It doesn't matter if it's Humpty Dumpty or God Help The Queen (Er, sorry, save). You're trying to do two things at once if you're trying to learn unknown tunes on an axe you don't completely know your way around. That's why you're resorting to leaning on the dots. Noodle away on stuff you're already familiar with until your fingers find the holes instinctively. Some polkas are pretty simple to play as far as getting the notes is concerned. You really need to aim to ditch those dots. They are anathema to newcomers. You might think you can learn from dots and then be all flexible in the session, but you'll be found out, mark my words. Learn tunes by ear only and you'll learn them right (to quote Alan Ng).

Now excuse me as I have to learn Julia Delaney's from scratch for tonight's session. Somebody wants me to tag it on to the end of their song. I'll be using dots and a midi file. But then I'm not a beginner. It's the first time I've ever done this. I'm going to make a right balls of it, aren't I...

[Hotblack]

Now excuse me as I have to learn Julia Delaney's from scratch for tonight's session. Somebody wants me to tag it on to the end of their song. I'll be using dots and a midi file. But then I'm not a beginner. It's the first time I've ever done this. I'm going to make a right balls of it, aren't I...

And as an aside, my local had Doom on last week at the Friday night session. And delicious as ever it was too.

[straycat82]

Indeed. But we all have to start somewhere. Maybe after years of experience this comes, but when you're only a few months in, this is rather more difficult. Surely using the dots helps in that learning process. I certainly does for me.

What does it help? It may help you to learn the notes of a new tune quicker but what has that really done for your playing? It's so much more important, especially in the early stages, to become comfortable on your instrument and train your ear- moreso than learning traditional tunes. If you keep using dots then you'll not acquire the "years of experience" you allude to above (well, not the right kind of experience anyway). Be careful what you view as progress. At one year it would be better for you to be in a place where you're comfortable with where your fingers go and to have started developing your ear for the music than to be able to stumble through 50 tunes poorly. Rather than working on what seems easy at this time, take the advice from those who've been at it longer and focus on the stuff that'll really help you in the long run. The fact that something is difficult now means that you'll have accomplished that much more in a couple months if you keep at it rather than diverting to what makes it easier on you.

Cheers.

[NicoMoreno]

One of my friends gets mad when it's suggested that dots should never be used. She happens to be a fantastic fiddler, well able to play with great style, and she started on sheet music. Sadly, I also use sheet music occasionally. Her explanation is that when you're first starting, you have to be taught how to listen. You can't hear all the little things like rhythm, notes, ornaments, etc, until you've spent days, years listening, but also being shown what to listen for. Some people just may never be able to learn without this sort of crutch. And unfortunately, some people really need the visual element to get over the hump.

But of course, you can't learn how to play irish music without the days and years of listening! And a teacher would be better than sheet music, for teaching you what to hear! And there's no reason why you have to use sheet music at all. But it is a tool, and it is possible to get good, even if you start out learning with a crutch.

Still, better to just be able to hear things and pick it up without the intermediate steps, eh?

I should also add, that both herself and I have had teachers, sessions, lessons, etc, so never was sheet music used on its own. As a memory aid it is useful, as a sort of guideline it can be helpful. As the be all and end all of how to play irish music? No.

[straycat82]

I still never know what to make when the term "dots" is used. For whistlers that could mean sheet music or whistle tab; I'm curious which one Hotblack is referring to?

Either way, in most cases neither are going to give you specifics of ornamentation for your instrument unless it is from a source created as a learning tool specifically for your instrument. Again, this is where your ear becomes more valuable than any dots. I see what you're saying about needing someone to teach you what to hear (and I fully agree) but I don't see the dots giving you Irish music rhythm or ornamentation clues either. Additionally, hearing ornamentation played properly is going to get you much closer to mimicking it accurately than any number of visual clues. Obviously a teacher is your most valuable tool if it is even an option for you (unfortunately, it never was for me).

This is why I suggest that putting the time into listening and becoming comfortable on your instrument are more valuable than learning the notes of any number of tunes from dots. The dots are a tool that will always be there but they will never really do anything to make you a better player. That all comes from the other two practices I (well, Steve) noted above.

[Edit] This was written before Nico added that last paragraph above which I believe supports both of our points.

[Mockingbird]

Not to be too much of a homeschool mommy...but might a difference in learning styles account for differing ways of picking up tunes?

Perhaps visual learners rely more on "dots," auditory learners more on sound files, kinesthetic people more by moving to a beat, tapping feet, etc.

I've had to do both visual and auditory, actually, for the mere five to six tunes I'm working on. Most of them I learned by listening to sound clips while following the musical notation visually. After a few trips through, I don't read the music anymore, just listen to someone (far better) playing it so I can get a better sense of how the song is "brought to life," so to speak. Although the gap between their ability and mine to do so can get discouraging.

[SteveShaw]

Well, I never did learn Julia Delaney's in time and I had to sit it out and admire the others playing it. My excuse is that I had to clean the house before my wife got home and, what with all this emailing, it took me longer than it should have...

One thing about this learning by dots stuff. It might seem to relative newbies that the people with experience are somehow trying, by constantly condemning dot-learning, to establish some sort of mystical exclusivity, a way of just making everything more difficult and ridden with obstacles. I've been playing for a good few years now on an instrument that gets accepted only with difficulty, but I'm welcomed these days wherever I go. I started out at the age of 40 and I thought I would never be able to learn tunes anywhere near fast enough unless I used dots. I am still not one of those wonderful people who can play a tune after just one or two hearings, not by a long chalk, but I have discovered that tune-books are virtually useless for wannabe sessioneers. The only thing I've ever used a tune-book for is to sort out occasional puzzles about notes I can't quite hear clearly on recordings. But I now have a large repertoire of tunes, if that's the right way of putting it, and, to be honest, I can't actually remember how I learned any of 'em, it was so much fun learning. You can't do it all at once, but think about it. Say you learn one tune per fortnight by ear. After a year you'll have 25 tunes and after five years you'll have 125 (it's even better than that as it happens, because once you develop your ear-learning you'll pick tunes up much faster than that, so let's be optimistic and say 300 tunes after five years). The point is that it's 300 tunes, or whatever, learned properly. That's pretty good. 300 tunes without dots. Brilliant! If you tried to learn 300 tunes from dots in five years you'd be able to play 'em, after a fashion, but you'd probably need your tune book and a music stand in the pub.

[Hotblack]

Indeed. But we all have to start somewhere. Maybe after years of experience this comes, but when you're only a few months in, this is rather more difficult. Surely using the dots helps in that learning process. I certainly does for me.

What does it help? It may help you to learn the notes of a new tune quicker but what has that really done for your playing? It's so much more important, especially in the early stages, to become comfortable on your instrument and train your ear- moreso than learning traditional tunes. If you keep using dots then you'll not acquire the "years of experience" you allude to above (well, not the right kind of experience anyway). Be careful what you view as progress. At one year it would be better for you to be in a place where you're comfortable with where your fingers go and to have started developing your ear for the music than to be able to stumble through 50 tunes poorly. Rather than working on what seems easy at this time, take the advice from those who've been at it longer and focus on the stuff that'll really help you in the long run. The fact that something is difficult now means that you'll have accomplished that much more in a couple months if you keep at it rather than diverting to what makes it easier on you.

Cheers.

I don't disagree with what you're saying and I did say

If you use the dots to learn the basics and then hone the tune with others you soon pick up the swing and expression required. The tune evolves as you learn it, from basic and, as you say, mechanical, to expressive.

So I'm learning a few tunes to be able to play along with at sessions and then using those to hone my whistle skills.

I still never know what to make when the term "dots" is used. For whistlers that could mean sheet music or whistle tab; I'm curious which one Hotblack is referring to?

Hmm! I may be confusing things here. I use the dots as a starting point and, if needs be, write my own tab under the dots (as detailed in the 'where do I find Low D tab' in the whistle board)

Either way, in most cases neither are going to give you specifics of ornamentation for your instrument unless it is from a source created as a learning tool specifically for your instrument. Again, this is where your ear becomes more valuable than any dots. I see what you're saying about needing someone to teach you what to hear (and I fully agree) but I don't see the dots giving you Irish music rhythm or ornamentation clues either. Additionally, hearing ornamentation played properly is going to get you much closer to mimicking it accurately than any number of visual clues. Obviously a teacher is your most valuable tool if it is even an option for you (unfortunately, it never was for me).

Again I don't disagree. As I keep saying I just use the dots as a starting point and then practice in both the session and at home on honing the tune.

Nico seems to have summed up what I think quite well. Maybe it's time I looked for a teacher. I hope there's one in the area.

[SteveShaw]

Tablature is the work of the devil. It steps in and interferes with what your ears alone should be doing.

[Hotblack]

If you don't know your way round your instrument with the full security that will give you the ability to learn tunes by ear, just play simple tunes on it that you already know for now. It doesn't matter if it's Humpty Dumpty or God Help The Queen (Er, sorry, save).

I couldn't think of anything more tedious or soul destroying , endlessly repeating extremely simple tunes (as working with the dots would be for you Steve, as you said in a previous post)

You're trying to do two things at once if you're trying to learn unknown tunes on an axe you don't completely know your way around. That's why you're resorting to leaning on the dots. Noodle away on stuff you're already familiar with until your fingers find the holes instinctively. You really need to aim to ditch those dots. They are anathema to newcomers.

I'm trying to learn a few tunes that are regulars at my local session so that I can then 'noodle away' and hone my skills. I don't intend to use the dots or notation for ever.

You might think you can learn from dots and then be all flexible in the session, but you'll be found out, mark my words. Learn tunes by ear only and you'll learn them right (to quote Alan Ng).

Maybe the session players are being very forgiving at the moment. I've not been going long. Whatever the situation, I'm getting lots of encouragement at the moment.

[Hotblack]

Tablature is the work of the devil.

I wondered what I was doing at that crossroads the other night.


Thank you everyone. I do understand what you are all saying and I'm trying to take on board what you are saying. Honestly.

I do hope to be able to ditch dots and tab. I practice nearly every day for at least an hour, and usually much longer so I am getting more comfortable with my whistle as time progresses but I intend to make this a fun experience and not a tedious one if I can help it.

[SteveShaw]

If you don't know your way round your instrument with the full security that will give you the ability to learn tunes by ear, just play simple tunes on it that you already know for now. It doesn't matter if it's Humpty Dumpty or God Help The Queen (Er, sorry, save).

I couldn't think of anything more tedious or soul destroying , endlessly repeating extremely simple tunes (as working with the dots would be for you Steve, as you said in a previous post)

You're trying to do two things at once if you're trying to learn unknown tunes on an axe you don't completely know your way around. That's why you're resorting to leaning on the dots. Noodle away on stuff you're already familiar with until your fingers find the holes instinctively. You really need to aim to ditch those dots. They are anathema to newcomers.

I'm trying to learn a few tunes that are regulars at my local session so that I can then 'noodle away' and hone my skills. I don't intend to use the dots or notation for ever.

You might think you can learn from dots and then be all flexible in the session, but you'll be found out, mark my words. Learn tunes by ear only and you'll learn them right (to quote Alan Ng).

Maybe the session players are being very forgiving at the moment. I've not been going long. Whatever the situation, I'm getting lots of encouragement at the moment.

I learned to play the harmonica by picking it up and playing along with tunes I heard on the radio or on records (we didn't have CDs in those days ). It was frustrating at times that I had the wrong key harmonica to join in but then I got to find out about "traditional" keys and was able to fix that by buying a few cheapies in the right keys. The fact is that Irish tunes are, on the whole, incredibly simple. They are played, on the whole, on simple instruments in an aural tradition, largely by untutored people (I never had a lesson from anyone but I made a CD once! ). Or at least by largely untutored people... It was years before I knew that tune books even existed. I have a whole collection of 'em but I don't think I've ever learned a single tune from one. I'll admit to looking up bits of tunes that I couldn't make out clearly from a recording but that's all. I learned some great polkas from a De Dannan album and those early Planxty ones and then I bought a Jackie Daly solo album and I sat in my kitchen after everyone else had gone to bed playing along with it. Not once have I ever worried about what note of a scale I'm playing or what hole number my mouth should be over or whether I should be sucking or blowing. I want to play music via an instrument, not play an instrument. Here endeth this particular pseudo-philosophical rant...

[SteveShaw]

A better man than I, on another board, has pointed out that the very limited information that actually exists in the dots, the main notes of the tune in order, is actually the easiest information about the tune to pick up by ear. As he says, if you can't even pick up that bit by ear what chance have you got with the rest?

[jileha]

The fact is that Irish tunes are, on the whole, incredibly simple. They are played, on the whole, on simple instruments in an aural tradition, largely by untutored people (I never had a lesson from anyone but I made a CD once! ). Or at least by largely untutored people...

Although I more often than not agree with what you say, Steve, your sometimes overly simplistic black-and-white views deserve some qualifications...

Why do you make your own personal experience sound like this is the way it should be for everybody?
It's one of many approaches and it worked for you. That doesn't mean any other approach would have failed or might not have even sped up your learning process and reduced the amount of frustration along the way.

"The fact is"... ? Says who?
Simple instruments? Uillean pipes, fiddle, concertina,... simple? Musicians spent years just getting half-way decent on those instruments. Also, "simple instruments" per se is a questionable term. One might call bodhráns or maybe whistles simple, but you can play them in a very simple way (which will not sound very Irish) or you can play them like a master, when they cease to be simple instruments.

On the contrary, I've encountered too many people who think that Irish traditional music is very simple music and therefore never invest the time necessary to really learn and play it "properly". They will continue playing Irish tunes, thinking that they were playing Irish traditional music, the same way they would play classical music or Bluegrass or whatever style they first learned - and find nothing wrong with it.

Largely untutored people? Even if you go back many decades to the times when Irish traditional music was mostly played only in Ireland and by Irish immigrants in the US, you find that most musicians (even from rather poor backgrounds) had extensive tutoring by other musicians. Parents taught their kids themselves or sent them to the nearest musician (who was usually not too far away) for lessons, or the kids were so fascinated by a particular musician and bugged them to teach them. They not only learned tunes and styles but - gasp, sometimes even music notation! This definitely continues until today. The majority of (if not all) Irish musicians in Ireland have been tutored extensively in their earlier years. If there are untutored people out there trying their hands at Irish traditional music, they'd probably fall into two main categories:
- those that don't have the opportunity for lessons with a qualified teacher (true for lots of people outside of Ireland) but would jump at any opportunity for workshops or occasional lessons
- those that feel they don't need it because they think that Irish music is simple music played on simple instruments

The above categorization does not really say anything about the individuals qualifications as musicians. IMHO, if you have what it takes, you'll learn and improve by making use of whatever means you have at hand. Therefore, I don't think one can globally condemn any type of learning approach as long as the individuals in questions don't lose sight of what they are actually trying to achieve. Ultimately, you cannot play Irish traditional music by sticking to the dots, no question about it, and anybody seriously interested in playing ITM will know this or find out not too long down the road. Those that don't have what it takes will never get to the ultimate goal of playing Irish traditional music, no matter what approach they use. On the contrary, insisting on their trying to follow the "pure drop" approach might only lead to frustration, resignation and tossing the towel. By using their own approach, they still might reach their individual goal of having fun learning and playing music, even if it'll never be the pure drop. Nothing fundamentally wrong with that, innit?

BTW, a good number of Irish music teachers use music notation (mostly some kind of ABC) to teach tunes in their classes. Everybody is aware that this will only teach them the skeleton, everybody knows they will have to make these tunes their own afterward.