How to approach ornamentation

[SteveShaw]

There is a very good substitute for practice. It's called "playing the tunes." Irish tunes have got arpeggios in them, they have ornaments in them and they have scales in them. Play the tunes and you're practising everything you need in order to play the tunes. Playing the tunes has another attribute, missing from other forms of practice. Tunes contain fun. I've yet to practise a scale, an arpeggio, an ornament or keeping up with a metronome and felt that I was having anything other than a bad time. It's easy music and it's peasant music and you practise by playing it. In the famous words of one Michael Gill, who posts wisely in another place, arpeggios and scales are just crap tunes. Why play crap tunes when you can play real ones?

Do you play the whistle as well as the harmonica?

Rarely simultaneously. And certainly not as well. But enough to know about the differences between the ornamentation possibilities on them. Would you also like to know my shoe size or which football team I support? In other words, if you have a point to make, make it and be damned. Hope this helps.

[Pammy]

Rarely simultaneously. And certainly not as well. But enough to know about the differences between the ornamentation possibilities on them. Would you also like to know my shoe size or which football team I support? In other words, if you have a point to make, make it and be damned. Hope this helps.

Hey Man. What's your problem mr angry? Just settle down dear. It was only an enquiry. Phew you should be taking Antipsychotic drugs for that.

[Denny]

naw, cheap ploy to get to show off his feet....

he loves to show off his feet

[SteveShaw]

OK, so if your enquiry was so innocent, tell me what the hell difference it would make if I didn't play the whistle. Come on, tell us. You and I both know full well what you're up to, don't we. And thanks for the medical advice, but I usually go to someone sensible if I want that.

[squidgirl]

Since this thread already seems to be spiraling down to its eventual doom, I'll come in with some more adversarial questions to the trad-masters from another (still-a-) beginner(-at-heart). I'm not demanding answers (though I really am curious), just suggesting questions that run through my mind as I read your responses to this thread topic:

How many years has it been since you were a complete musical beginner?
Do you have much experience/success teaching adult beginners with no prior musical experience?
Did you start playing music as a child?
Were you generally acknowledged as having musical talent?
For how many years have you been listening to Irish music?

That said, I feel that at my stage of no-longer-a-total-beginner-ness, I have a lot to learn from what you all are saying. I've already started implanting more ornamentation options into my playing, instead of just doing only rolls and cuts to separate same notes. So you're not preaching into a vacuum here.

But I think that ornamentation issue falls under the umbrella of playing with authenticity to the tradition, and I'd say there's a more primary issue that comes first, which is learning how to make music happen. Some of us adult beginners need to spend a bit of time learning to make the noises we're making transmute into something which any random, not-necessarily-traditional listener would identify as "Ah, Music!" rather than "Ugh, I wish you wouldn't do that while I'm around!"

And I have to say, some of the beginner efforts on you-tube have given me a new perspective of mercy for my roommates, particularly ones where new players (of talents far greater of my own) use ornaments that wreck havoc on the basic pulse of their tunes. Makes a beginner want to pause and think...

[Pammy]

OK, so if your enquiry was so innocent, tell me what the hell difference it would make if I didn't play the whistle. Come on, tell us. You and I both know full well what you're up to, don't we. And thanks for the medical advice, but I usually go to someone sensible if I want that.

Stop it Steve. Not here. I will pm you later.

[benhall.1]

In answer to Ms Squid:

Firstly, I'm not a "trad-master". But I'll answer the questions anyway. I've been listening to and playing this music almost all my life. I have some, but very limited, experience of trying to teach adults. Over here, it seems that most "adult learners" are, in fact, people going through a fad, which they will quickly replace with another fad, and then another, and so on. Either that, or they're people who just won't listen to anything said to them by people who may have something to offer (not me), and who therefore wreck otherwise promising sessions/other musical events whilst being oblivious of doing so.

OK, so there's more than one way to learn. Here's one great thing in favour of the 'learn by listening' approach: if you do that, you'll have been practising listening, and you stand a chance of continuing to listen when you go out to sessions. If you choose some other method, chances are that you won't have practised listening, and therefore will either be incapable of it at sessions, or it won't occur to you.

[fiddlerwill]

How many years has it been since you were a complete musical beginner?
Do you have much experience/success teaching adult beginners with no prior musical experience?
Did you start playing music as a child?
Were you generally acknowledged as having musical talent?
For how many years have you been listening to Irish music?

@
1 a few months , on my latest instrument!
2 yes
3 yes
4 25

Interesting questions, All through my musical career Ive enjoyed picking up new instruments and learning to play them, some I dedicate an immense amount of time and energy, some just a bit here and a bit there. I find it helps me keep things in perspective. Starting as a child I needed to find my own focus and motivation befor I could really improve, once that was found its been pretty straightforward, Play every day, practice and enjoy it all. Talent IMO is not all its made out to be, far more important is dedication enjoyment and persistance.
Ive been playing trad for all my adult life day in day out and enjoy it as much if not more than I ever have.


IMO ornamentation is just one aspect of the tradition, its nice if you can do it but can be an ego trip/trap. All around the world wonderfull music is made with little of this ornamental shtuff. There are many, many benefits to be gained by restricting the use of ornamentation and focusing instead on phraseing and timing. Once musical competance is gained then ornamental figures can be developed and incorperated or, in tandem, as tehnical exercises. A simplistic approach that values ornamentation as a good in itself is not IMO a route for musical excellence, they are tools to aid personal expression, litterally : ornaments.

Keep a beginers mind.

[pancelticpiper]

Do you have much experience/success teaching adult beginners with no prior musical experience?

Yes I've done a lot of that. Most have been Highland pipe learners, but there have been quite a few uilleann, Irish flute, and whistle learners too.

It's kind of amazing, the differing rates of progress of different learners. An example I've often cited is the experiences of two guys who started Highland pipe lessons at the same time. One was 15, the other 45. Highland piping has a fairly large number of ornaments which the beginner needs to master to play any GHB tune, as these ornaments are what define the style. Well, on the same day I introduced both the youngster and the middleaged guy to the same ornament at their respective lessons.

I demonstrated playing the ornament to the youngster and he played it right back to me, quite perfectly. Throughout the rest of the lesson, the kid played that ornament quite consistently, never bobbling it.

I demonstrated that ornament to the 45-year-old, and we went over and over it for most of the hour lesson. His mind knew exactly what his fingers needed to do, but he could not get his fingers to do it. After slowing the ornament down to its component parts, and breaking it down to six discrete finger motions, and having him labouriously force his fingers to do these motions one at a time, he eventually got to the point of being able to do the ornament very slowly.

Fast forward to a year later: the kid never actually had to practice that ornament, as he could play it with reliable perfection ever after.

The adult learner practiced that one ornament around 15 minutes a day during that year, and at the end of the year could play the ornament fairly well, albeit somewhat laboured, and not entirely consistently: if asked to play it ten times in a row, a couple would be bobbled. (By the way this guy was already proficient on the drums and banjo.)

Anyhow it's my contention that there's very little ornamentation in Irish flute and whistle music. If you need to play three B's in a row, and seperate them with the breath or tongue, that's by definition not a ornament, and if you choose to seperate those three B's with a cut and a pat, I don't think that's an ornament either, merely a different way to articulate notes.
On the Irish wind instruments, these digital articulations are melded to the tune and style so much that removing them would be to learn an artificial construct.

[benhall.1]

(By the way this guy was already proficient on the drums and banjo.)

Yes, but did he play a musical instrument?

[highland-piper]

The thing is, that different instruments use different ornaments, so as a fiddler, attempting to copy or incorperate GHB ornaments into my fiddling is simply impossible.

Yeah, but the original poster isn't a GHB player nor a fiddler. He's not a whistler yet either! I'm kind of picking on your post, but a lot of others made comments along a similar line.

For my money, the youtube videos by tradlessons are priceless. They show you the tune up to speed, so you know how it goes, and they show you the tune slowly, so you can figure it out. They have some ornaments, so you can learn *an* appropriate way to articulate and ornament a tune.

I can use highland ornaments on whistle and play them from my sense of musicality, but they don't sound like ITM that way -- they sound Scottish. By following the youtube videos I mentioned I can learn to make things sound Irish.

The original poster's first job is to learn to play whistle in an authentic style (whatever kind of style he wants, but everone seems to be assuming it should be ITM). The easiest way to learn *an* authentic style is to copy someone else. Slowly. There's no shame in learning to play someone else's setting blip-for-blip. Do that enough and before long you'll have your own ear for things.

[[snip]]

Of course a tradition can become codified and regimented as with the GHB but ITM is not based upon the british military tradition, and there is quite a movement to liberate the GHB from under this umbrella and return to an older and more sympathetic tradition.

You have the sequence backwards -- Highland piping was an established tradition that was incorporated wholesale to the British Army along with the Highland regiments. Modern Highland piping is what it is as a result of evolution. Competition in Highland piping is the perfect example of an evolutionary system. It's the competition system that has produced what we have, not the military. The military has, and always has had, a relatively low standard (relative to the civilian competition system.)

The funny thing is, despite all the "codification and regimentation," the GHB tradition is (and always has been) a place of change. If you didn't win a competition this year, you're probably not going to win next year by doing the same thing. Here's an interesting difference between GHB and ITM: In GHB pretty much no one cares what anyone did more than about 25 years ago. Go onto a GHB forum and read the posts about what recordings people like. 90% of them will be from within about 10 years, and the only ones from the 1980s will be Strathclyde Police. We're always looking forward to what we're going to do different next season, and not back at what someone else did in the past. I see the rapid pace of change in Highland Piping as a symptom of a healty, living tradition.

[squidgirl]

I asked my questions because I think there is a huge difference between learning music (or languages) as a child (or somewhat older youth) versus learning as an adult. It seems to me that chidren's ears are more "open" somehow, so a lack of habitual listening habits allow them to hear more of what is being played. Also, biologically, from what I have read, the younger brain is more plastic and able to learn and recreate new patterns of action or patterns of sound.

One thing I often find myself feeling is that people who began playing music since their youth just don't grok how difficult and alien an endeavor it is for a middle-aged adult to pick up a musical instrument and figure out how to coordinate their fingers to make orderly sounds (much less music!). When I started this, it really felt like I was almost completely lacking in neural pathways to control the actions of my individual fingers. I'd try to move my ring finger, and my middle finger would move instead. I'd go to move a finger, and there'd be a noticeable time delay between my willing the motion and my body figuring out what to do. Listening to myself was actively painful, and incredibly frustrating.

And listening to Irish music is another skill which improves with use. I still don't hear all the ornaments as they're being played -- I hear a sense of texture that some notes have and others don't (crunchiness?), but at speed can it's still hard for me to consciously track which note is being ornamented, or follow which variation of little diddley patterns follows so swiftly on the heels of the previous diddely pattern. At first I was one of those people who grumpily complained that the music went by too fast for me to appreciate it, while now I'm better able to parse and enjoy it at speed, and comprehend more of what it's doing. But my ear still isn't developed enough to figure out where and the ornaments are without slowing the tune way down and consciously noting them on my sheet music crutch.

Not sure if I've successfully conveyed my point, but feel free to question me in turn.

BTW, benhall.1, your Anthony Robbins quote was incisive and well taken. For those who missed it:

"if you do what you've always done you'll get what you've always gotten"

[SteveShaw]

OK, so if your enquiry was so innocent, tell me what the hell difference it would make if I didn't play the whistle. Come on, tell us. You and I both know full well what you're up to, don't we. And thanks for the medical advice, but I usually go to someone sensible if I want that.

Stop it Steve. Not here. I will pm you later.

Ha, stop it she says, now that she's told me and the world I have a mental condition. And please do not send me any more private messages. Just quit the pointless goading and I'll ignore you. That's it from me to you.

Over here, it seems that most "adult learners" are, in fact, people going through a fad, which they will quickly replace with another fad, and then another, and so on. Either that, or they're people who just won't listen to anything said to them by people who may have something to offer (not me), and who therefore wreck otherwise promising sessions/other musical events whilst being oblivious of doing so.

OK, so there's more than one way to learn. Here's one great thing in favour of the 'learn by listening' approach: if you do that, you'll have been practising listening, and you stand a chance of continuing to listen when you go out to sessions. If you choose some other method, chances are that you won't have practised listening, and therefore will either be incapable of it at sessions, or it won't occur to you.

The arrogant non-listeners are the worst. They usually have an inflated sense of their own abilities. On the other hand, you meet players good enough to be playing in symphony orchestras who are so anxious to fit in and do it right. They're the ones who have recognised the importance of listening.

[david_h]

Not sure if I've successfully conveyed my point

If I have understood it I agree with you.

I think the experienced people who post here do understand the difficulties of the adult learner, but discussions tend to dive towards strong opinions raised by thoughts and concerns that go beyond the initial questions (e.g. see the later part of Steve's post just before this one). Fairly early on with this discussion a couple of people picked up on the 'it depends what you mean by ornaments' issue about the OP and the article that jemtheflute linked was very much about making music - ornamanents as a means to an end. Steve in an early post had a caveat about people who only had a handful tunes.

I think I am more familiar (only relatively) with the way the music should sound than I am with the instrument - the fingers and mouth doing it well enough to achieve what seems to be needed. But highland-piper's comment about sounding scottish has me thinking that, sure, I can manage leaving some ornaments out while I am getting to grips with the instrument - but I suspect it ends up sounding english.

[MTGuru]

I'm going to freeze this thread just long enough for me to review the whole thing without following a moving target.