Ralph Sweet flute tweak

[pancelticpiper]

I don't know if anyone here will find this interesting or helpful at all, but if so, here goes:

A friend who has been learning Irish flute, and has been tooting on a terrible old German flute, bought a used Ralph Sweet maple flute fairly cheaply.

The first thing that had to be done was to remove the funky pinkish yarn and clean up the tenon. Then I discovered that the wood at the top of the tenon, where it's larger to hold the wrapping thread in place, was so large that it was a very tight wood-on-wood squeeze to put the headjoint on. I filed down the wood there so that it was a wood-on-wrapping fit.

This flute has a very nice powerful bottom D and clear middle D.

Other than that it was too out of tune to be useful. After moving the cork to fix the octaves I found that with the headjoint pushed in all the way the Ds and Es were in tune (to A=440) but everything else was quite flat. So I started carving out the holes with a Dremel, starting with the F# hole and working up. (That's the direction you want to go because opening up a hole also sharpens the notes above it to some extent.) The G, A, and B holes were quite undersized to begin with so I ended up with holes still somewhat on the small side, Rudall-like I suppose. (No I didn't end up with a Frankenflute monster with crazy huge irregularly shaped holes.)

The result was a very nice-playing loud clear in-tune Irish flute for under $200.

By the way I've played many dozens of Sweet flutes over the years and the maple ones nearly always play much better than the ones of more exotic woods. (Why they do is another tale...)

[jcannon]

interesting. I have one of these in maple from 25 yrs ago, and the top tenon toward the head warped so that it is out of round (an irregular oval shape) which makes it tougher to put the head on. Still have the thread wrap on it. Maybe I'll take it off and see if there's enough wood there to shave it back down to a little closer to round. May get a better seal then as well.

I don't know if anyone here will find this interesting or helpful at all, but if so, here goes:

A friend who has been learning Irish flute, and has been tooting on a terrible old German flute, bought a used Ralph Sweet maple flute fairly cheaply.

The first thing that had to be done was to remove the funky pinkish yarn and clean up the tenon. Then I discovered that the wood at the top of the tenon, where it's larger to hold the wrapping thread in place, was so large that it was a very tight wood-on-wood squeeze to put the headjoint on. I filed down the wood there so that it was a wood-on-wrapping fit.

This flute has a very nice powerful bottom D and clear middle D.

Other than that it was too out of tune to be useful. After moving the cork to fix the octaves I found that with the headjoint pushed in all the way the Ds and Es were in tune (to A=440) but everything else was quite flat. So I started carving out the holes with a Dremel, starting with the F# hole and working up. (That's the direction you want to go because opening up a hole also sharpens the notes above it to some extent.) The G, A, and B holes were quite undersized to begin with so I ended up with holes still somewhat on the small side, Rudall-like I suppose. (No I didn't end up with a Frankenflute monster with crazy huge irregularly shaped holes.)

The result was a very nice-playing loud clear in-tune Irish flute for under $200.

By the way I've played many dozens of Sweet flutes over the years and the maple ones nearly always play much better than the ones of more exotic woods. (Why they do is another tale...)

[MTGuru]

A few questions, PC, if you don't mind. And I'm not a fluter, as you know , so I have no axe to grind.

1) It sounds like you're saying in effect that Sweetheart flutes are unplayable as delivered new. Now, I know a $300 flute is a modest instrument. But it's hard to imagine the Sweets letting flutes out of their workshop with such execrable intonation that they require Dremel surgery before playing. Was there something about the condition of this particular instrument that accounts for the tuning problems?

2) The initial tuning you describe - tuning joint all the way in, progressively flat up the scale - seems exactly what would happen if the cork were simply out too far. Basic physics. Might there not be a position with the joint slightly out and the cork further in where the flute is in tune, and the octaves reasonably so - maybe corresponding to the factory setup?

3) Why set up the flute so there's no room to push in sharper than A440, when so many sessions tend to tune sharp?

Thanks, and sorry if I'm misunderstanding something pretty basic here, which is perfectly possible.

[s1m0n]

interesting. I have one of these in maple from 25 yrs ago, and the top tenon toward the head warped so that it is out of round (an irregular oval shape) which makes it tougher to put the head on. Still have the thread wrap on it.

My first flute was a Sweetheart, and I wish I still had it, although some fluters sneered. As I recall, the care info I absorbed, from where I don't know, was that it might be neccessary from time to time to either add or remove thread from the wrapped tenons, depending on need. I don't recall what it was that might change - climate? humidity? Played in or no? - but I do that this was not intended to be a plug-and-play, maintainance-free feature.

If you have questions, start by asking the Sweets. They're on line via the Sweetheart brandname.

[boyd]

Cork positioning was my first thought when I read the story too.

But you'd need to have been there to see/check if that was the case.

I always get nervous when people start re-drilling oles in an instrument.
Had a pipemaker do it once for a flat A.....he knew what he was doing...I was nervous !!!

Boyd

[crookedtune]

It sounds like you're saying in effect that Sweetheart flutes are unplayable as delivered new.

Actually, the OP points out that the flute was bought used. As such, it's impossible to know the history of the instrument. It could have been altered, could have been an early prototype, the work of an apprentice or trainee, etc....

I've had a few Sweetheart instruments go through my hands, and found them all to be decent, well-tuned and playable. None felt like the "right" instrument for me, except for a blackwood F flute that is a real keeper. I think there has been some measure of variability in the Sweet flutes, and I have no doubt that they have improved through the years, as Ralph and Walt have refined their ways of doing things. I'd really like the chance to visit the shop and sample their current wares.

[pancelticpiper]

questions from "MTGuru"...

1) It sounds like you're saying in effect that Sweetheart flutes are unplayable as delivered new.

I wouldn't generalise like that- all I know is that this particular flute was like that. I've played a very large number of Sweet flutes from his early ones in the late 70's through more recent ones. My first flute was a rosewood Sweet. Generally they're in tune but they do have a tendency towards having a sharpish E.

2) The initial tuning you describe - tuning joint all the way in, progressively flat up the scale - seems exactly what would happen if the cork were simply out too far. Basic physics. Might there not be a position with the joint slightly out and the cork further in where the flute is in tune, and the octaves reasonably so - maybe corresponding to the factory setup?

I've played a very large number of flutes over the last 30+ years and I know how a cork should be set, I think. The optimal position of the cork makes the octaves in tune and ideally makes the voicing best. Trying to use the cork to fix the scale in one octave while at the same time spoiling the relationship between the octaves just isn't how flutes work. On this particular flute when the cork was set just right the D and E were in tune to A=440 and the F#, G, A, and B were flat. Not progressively flat: actually the F# and B were the flattest, the A the nearest. The crossfingered Cnat was good. As I said above Sweet flutes tend towards a sharp E and in this case the Ds and Cnat matched the E, thus serving as the best benchmarks for the tuning of the rest of the scale.

3) Why set up the flute so there's no room to push in sharper than A440, when so many sessions tend to tune sharp?

It's not how I set up this flute, it's how this flute was made, having D, E, and Cnat in tune to A=440 and everything else flat. Getting the entire flute to play sharper would entail either chopping the bottom and further carving the toneholes, or better yet having a maker chop the upper end of the body and turn a new tenon.

I actually had to have this done with a maple Sweet C flute I got cheap on Ebay several years ago. On this flute everyting was very very flat, in fact a quartertone between C and B. A maker chopped the top of the body and turned a new tenon for me, so that the scale was mostly in tune to around A=442 (so as to have some tuning leeway). The note which would be F# on a D flute was still extremely flat and had to be heavily carved. When done I had a very nice-playing flute.

[pancelticpiper]

quotes from "crookedtune"

It could have been altered... I didn't see any evidence of this but it's a possiblity. It sure looked like straight-from-Ralph stuff.

could have been an early prototype... No this one has a high serial number. BTW the first Sweet flute I saw/tried back in the 70's was numbered, as I recall, "79" and the one I bought had a number in the 130's as I recall. This one had a serial number well over 1000.

the work of an apprentice or trainee, etc.... Certainly a possibility.

I've had a few Sweetheart instruments go through my hands, and found them all to be decent, well-tuned and playable. I agree, except for the sharpish E many have.

a blackwood F flute that is a real keeper. Yes I used to have a rosewood F that was fantastic!

they (Sweet flutes) have improved through the years, as Ralph and Walt have refined their ways of doing things. Very true! Over 30+ years of playing upon Sweet flutes I've found that they just keep getting better and better.

[jim stone]

I've heard that there were sometimes quality-control problems with earlier Sweetheart flutes, the implication
being that these problems have been rectified. Whether or not such problems existed I don't know,
however I've owned six of these flutes in the last six years, including some in different keys,
and they were fine as far as tuning, etc, IMO. No issues. I like the pink thread stuff, by the way.
Works well and it's very durable. Flutes are durable too, in my experience anyhow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YwG7xmz4XQ

[Brazenkane]

i
Other than that it was too out of tune to be useful. After moving the cork to fix the octaves I found that with the headjoint pushed in all the way the Ds and Es were in tune (to A=440) but everything else was quite flat. So I started carving out the holes with a Dremel, starting with the F# hole and working up. (That's the direction you want to go because opening up a hole also sharpens the notes above it to some extent.) The G, A, and B holes were quite undersized to begin with so I ended up with holes still somewhat on the small side, Rudall-like I suppose. (No I didn't end up with a Frankenflute monster with crazy huge irregularly shaped holes.)

The result was a very nice-playing loud clear in-tune Irish flute for under $200.

By the way I've played many dozens of Sweet flutes over the years and the maple ones nearly always play much better than the ones of more exotic woods. (Why they do is another tale...)

[/quote]

Tim Britton tweaked a Sweetheart flute quite well for me, years ago.

[MTGuru]

OK, thanks all for the info. Of course, PC, I wasn't implying that you don't know what you're doing. Just that it seems you have a particular setup algorithm - cork/octaves (at a particular head position), then bell D, then upper notes. And I wondered if a different algorithm or different factory tuning concept might result in a different setup. For example, sacrificing perfect octaves for a sharper overall tuning, and leaving it to the player to embouchure-adjust. Otherwise, the impression is that some of these flutes do indeed have problems, or at least are set up very differently from your expectations.

Would you take this same surgical approach to a more expensive crafted flute or vintage flute that came your way? Does the fact that the Sweetheart is relatively inexpensive influence your thinking?

Not exactly parallel, I know ... But I've come across a few whistles that exhibit severe intonation problems when I first pick them up. Almost always, the issue is that the maker has a very different concept of normal breath pressure from mine - usually much less. These whistles are designed to be underblown by my standards, but other weaker players may find them just right and in tune. And I wonder if the same sort of "mismatched expectations" problem can occur with flutes, too.

[Denny]

PC's approach seems okay.....

I futz about long enough to determine where my embouchure was at that day,
then find sort of a mid point in what I could lip and try stay there

I then adjust the slide so that the flute's sharpest note was about as far off as the flattest.

I then adjust the cork for the octaves.

repeat as necessary.

[greenspiderweb]

...Not exactly parallel, I know ... But I've come across a few whistles that exhibit severe intonation problems when I first pick them up. Almost always, the issue is that the maker has a very different concept of normal breath pressure from mine - usually much less. These whistles are designed to be underblown by my standards, but other weaker players may find them just right and in tune. And I wonder if the same sort of "mismatched expectations" problem can occur with flutes, too.

I haven't been playing as long as some, but have played many flutes, and I have come to the conclusion that there is a definite way that certain makers tune their flutes-from how they play (angle of blow, tight or loose embouchure) and place their lips around the embouchure hole, along with their expectations of how it will be played. And if you don't match up the way it was meant to be played and tuned, it won't play well and in tune for you either. I think it's a major problem, until you gain enough experience in playing and adjusting your embouchure
to match the particular flute's set peculiarities you are playing at the time.

It also seems there may be tuning anomalies inherent to different style flutes and how they are bored, along with hole size and placement (possibly more important), and embouchure cut being factors as well. To my unscientific but practical reasoning, that is why flute is one of the hardest instruments to master, especially if you are trying to play a flute that isn't a good match for you. As you mention, MT, some whistle makers have different expectations too, of how hard to blow-I have found this as well in Native American flutes, and how it relates to tuning issues.

Then there are factors in used flutes, such as the wood of the bore and tenons changing dimension over time, which in some cases will affect the tuning quite a bit-and thus needing some adjustment, either the player's embouchure, or physically altering the dimensions by someone who knows what they are doing to correct the faults that may have developed from wood movement over time.

I'm sure flutemakers could say much more about this, and with some science to back up their knowledge and experience, so all I can say is what I have come to believe through trial of playing. Hopefully I'm not too far off base.

[Doug_Tipple]

I haven't been playing as long as some, but have played many flutes, and I have come to the conclusion that there is a definite way that certain makers tune their flutes-from how they play (angle of blow, tight or loose embouchure) and place their lips around the embouchure hole, along with their expectations of how it will be played. And if you don't match up the way it was meant to be played and tuned, it won't play well and in tune for you either. I think it's a major problem, until you gain enough experience in playing and adjusting your embouchure
to match the particular flute's set peculiarities you are playing at the time.

You write well, Barry. The above is one of the reasons that I no longer make non-tunable flutes. One person would compliment me on the flutes's pitch and intonation, while the next person would have a list of faults. At least, with a tuning slide, I don't have the pitch problem anymore, but, like you say, people blow differently, especially beginners.

[pancelticpiper]

Yes it's sure true that occasionally you'll come across a self-taught Irish fluteplayer who has come up with an odd way of blowing the flute, which throws off the tuning. (The most common I've seen is the turning of the embouchure hole inward which makes the flute play flat.)

Usually though embouchure formation is self-regulating in that a certain embouchure produces the clearest, biggest sound and whether someone is playing Boehm flute or Irish flute or Bansuri flute or whatever the self-taught person will gravitate (often unknowingly) towards a good embouchure through a bio-feedback process, the embouchure making small adjustments through long practice to create the best tone.

In a way, flutes are flutes. I started on a Sweet flute back in the 70's and then played an original c1830 Rudall & Rose for many years, then a c1860 Pratten for many years, and over the last 30+ years I've played various Boehm flutes and old flutes and flutes from most current Irish flute makers and bamboo flutes and Baroque flutes and in the end flutes are flutes and they all play about the same. Any decent fluteplayer, regardless of his flute background, can pick up any well-made in-tune Irish flute or Boehm flute or Baroque flute or bamboo flute and play it in tune. I know this from personal experience: I've attended and taught a large number of Irish flute workshops and when a lot of fluteplayers get together they can blow each other's flutes just fine. The Boehm flute player who has never played and Irish flute before may have trouble with his fingers but not with the blowing. The Irish fluteplayer who has never played a Boehm flute can pick one up and he may not know where to place his fingers but he'll blow a good tone out of the thing. They all blow about the same.

So with this particular Sweet flute I'm not bringing some strange sort of blowing the flute to the table which is making it play oddly, but rather I'm bringing a fairly long and wide experience with blowing a lot of different sorts of flutes. This flute just played out of tune, and now it plays in tune... not much more to the story.