What are the differences between the two flute styles? Tone, air requirement, finger-stretch ...???
I'm thinking about ordering a keyed flute soon and need more information before making a choice. Is there a website with good explanations?
I only know Pratten style: keyless Hamilton flute - great instrument, but not very comfortable for small hands.
What is different in a Rudall & Rose? Are they smaller and quieter? Why do many flute players prefer R&R? Please help.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: claudine on 2003-01-26 04:34 ]</font>
Pratten vs Rudall & Rose - Advice please?
Claudine,
Take a look at Terry McGee's web site. Lot's of great information.
http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/index.html
Bill
Take a look at Terry McGee's web site. Lot's of great information.
http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/index.html
Bill
Claudine,
There will be varied opinions, depending of player's needs, the player's "size", and the maker of the copy of the flute. Ultimately, you need to try both models. How you achieve this is your challenge.
My experience is that the Pratten is "large". Lots of volume for playing at "noisy" sessions. It has a large air fill requirement, and large finger holes. Having said this, I find the Olwell Pratten easy to fill and comfortable to finger. The Rudall & Rose is a bit quieter, but I think it has a "sweeter" timber, particularly in the third octave.
I was ordering a six-keyed Pratten the other day. The maker volunteered to send me an unkeyed Pratten and a Rudall, so I could choose which I'd like to get keyed and purchase. Of course, I have to wait a while until they're available for trial.
I exchanged emails with Rod Cameron the other day. He has a copy of Chis Norman's Rudall, the one discussed on Terry's web site, available. It's very tempting to me, but its keyless. Rod is one of the top flute makers. I don't know if Rod sends flutes out on approval.
Hope this is helpful.
Bill
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SuiZen on 2003-01-26 06:15 ]</font>
There will be varied opinions, depending of player's needs, the player's "size", and the maker of the copy of the flute. Ultimately, you need to try both models. How you achieve this is your challenge.
My experience is that the Pratten is "large". Lots of volume for playing at "noisy" sessions. It has a large air fill requirement, and large finger holes. Having said this, I find the Olwell Pratten easy to fill and comfortable to finger. The Rudall & Rose is a bit quieter, but I think it has a "sweeter" timber, particularly in the third octave.
I was ordering a six-keyed Pratten the other day. The maker volunteered to send me an unkeyed Pratten and a Rudall, so I could choose which I'd like to get keyed and purchase. Of course, I have to wait a while until they're available for trial.
I exchanged emails with Rod Cameron the other day. He has a copy of Chis Norman's Rudall, the one discussed on Terry's web site, available. It's very tempting to me, but its keyless. Rod is one of the top flute makers. I don't know if Rod sends flutes out on approval.
Hope this is helpful.
Bill
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SuiZen on 2003-01-26 06:15 ]</font>
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Gordon
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The problem with comparing Pratten (style) flutes to Rudall styles is that the Pratten was/is a specific model style (large hole, large bore, generally if not always a one-piece middle section with all 6 holes in it), but the Rudall, Rudall-Rose flutes vary greatly, as those original makers made a variety of flutes. Some are smallish-holed, some not, some are single mid-piece, though most are not. Some are quite loud, easily holding their own against a Pratten, and others, well, not.
In general, the Rudall, the originals and the very various modern copies, are daintier to hold, with a split between the right and left hand, which may or may not be important to your playing style. More tenons, like more keys, of course, can cause more problems, and so the lower maintainance and most air efficient is the Pratten. But that's not necessarily always true, either.
Both original models were designs created for contemporary (at the time) classical music, with ideas to improve volume and/or intonation. Modern Pratten types (unlike the originals of both styles) are general made for Irish music specifically; louder, throatier, etc., great session instruments, though they are not limited to that music and well-made Pratten types can be played softly and sweetly as well. Prattens tend to have better intonation, particularly in the low end. Modern Rudall types are great for Irish music as well, of course, but they were made more in the tradition of earlier classical flutes, especially the smaller-holed models, and the difference in playing ease and sound is simply a matter of opinion, hand size and what you get used to.
Ultimately, the sounds from both -- and this in not meant as a patronizing, well-trod sentiment, but a fact -- comes from the player, and both styles are capable of whatever the player can put into it. So, ultimately, if you're deciding one over the other, it's is much, much more important to find which feels better in your hands than which is said to produce a certain sound. Chances are, you will only produce whatever sound you already produce until you grow, and then you will still produce that new sound on either style flute.
Great players will switch makers and flute types, Pratten or Rudall style, and most of us will never really hear a difference. It becomes more a matter for the player, who simply felt that, for whatever reason, they like playing a particular flute or a particular design.
Lastly, since you are not really talking about the original makers, I take it, but the modern versions, the differences between makers is far more varied than whether they based their models on a Pratten or a Rudall.
In general, the Rudall, the originals and the very various modern copies, are daintier to hold, with a split between the right and left hand, which may or may not be important to your playing style. More tenons, like more keys, of course, can cause more problems, and so the lower maintainance and most air efficient is the Pratten. But that's not necessarily always true, either.
Both original models were designs created for contemporary (at the time) classical music, with ideas to improve volume and/or intonation. Modern Pratten types (unlike the originals of both styles) are general made for Irish music specifically; louder, throatier, etc., great session instruments, though they are not limited to that music and well-made Pratten types can be played softly and sweetly as well. Prattens tend to have better intonation, particularly in the low end. Modern Rudall types are great for Irish music as well, of course, but they were made more in the tradition of earlier classical flutes, especially the smaller-holed models, and the difference in playing ease and sound is simply a matter of opinion, hand size and what you get used to.
Ultimately, the sounds from both -- and this in not meant as a patronizing, well-trod sentiment, but a fact -- comes from the player, and both styles are capable of whatever the player can put into it. So, ultimately, if you're deciding one over the other, it's is much, much more important to find which feels better in your hands than which is said to produce a certain sound. Chances are, you will only produce whatever sound you already produce until you grow, and then you will still produce that new sound on either style flute.
Great players will switch makers and flute types, Pratten or Rudall style, and most of us will never really hear a difference. It becomes more a matter for the player, who simply felt that, for whatever reason, they like playing a particular flute or a particular design.
Lastly, since you are not really talking about the original makers, I take it, but the modern versions, the differences between makers is far more varied than whether they based their models on a Pratten or a Rudall.
Re: Gordon's comments - exactly why you need to try the maker's models - granted easier said than done.
Claudine: What's your flute background? Are you looking for an inexpensive beginner/intermediate flute, or are you okay with paying the price and waiting for a flute from a top maker? This background info would help focus comments.
Bill
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SuiZen on 2003-01-26 10:56 ]</font>
Claudine: What's your flute background? Are you looking for an inexpensive beginner/intermediate flute, or are you okay with paying the price and waiting for a flute from a top maker? This background info would help focus comments.
Bill
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SuiZen on 2003-01-26 10:56 ]</font>
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claudine
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hi Bill and Gordon,
thanks for your replies. My flute background: have been playing keyless flute for 1 1/2 year, first Seery than Hamilton blackwood. I love the Hamilton flute for sound and response, it's just a bit uncomfortable for the hands. Unfortunately I got an allergic reaction to the blackwood after a few weeks. This problem should be soon resolved by a silver lip plate. So I'm not in a hurry at all. I want to gather enough information about different flute kinds before ordering a new flute: different wood, a bit smaller for the hands, and a few keys (at least 4). I was thinking about Tom Aebi but have not yet talked to him, as I feel not yet ready to make a decision.
I guess the best thing would be to attend flute workshops and then try as many flutes as possible.
thanks for your replies. My flute background: have been playing keyless flute for 1 1/2 year, first Seery than Hamilton blackwood. I love the Hamilton flute for sound and response, it's just a bit uncomfortable for the hands. Unfortunately I got an allergic reaction to the blackwood after a few weeks. This problem should be soon resolved by a silver lip plate. So I'm not in a hurry at all. I want to gather enough information about different flute kinds before ordering a new flute: different wood, a bit smaller for the hands, and a few keys (at least 4). I was thinking about Tom Aebi but have not yet talked to him, as I feel not yet ready to make a decision.
I guess the best thing would be to attend flute workshops and then try as many flutes as possible.
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sturob
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Since I never keep my mouth shut on this topic . . .
Yes, I do agree with the above. However, I think it's probably safe to say that nearly every flutemaker makes a medium-holed Rudall-inspired design as his Rudall model. Except for Terry McGee, who makes just about every Rudall flavor you could want.
So, the gross oversimplifications of Pratten big, Rudall smaller; Pratten loud/cutting, Rudall tame/refined generally do apply.
More than anything, I think Rudall has become the archetype of the medium-holed flute, whereas big flutes follow the Pratten model. Generally speaking.
But, it's all in the maker. So try as many as you can.
Stuart
Yes, I do agree with the above. However, I think it's probably safe to say that nearly every flutemaker makes a medium-holed Rudall-inspired design as his Rudall model. Except for Terry McGee, who makes just about every Rudall flavor you could want.
So, the gross oversimplifications of Pratten big, Rudall smaller; Pratten loud/cutting, Rudall tame/refined generally do apply.
More than anything, I think Rudall has become the archetype of the medium-holed flute, whereas big flutes follow the Pratten model. Generally speaking.
But, it's all in the maker. So try as many as you can.
Stuart
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Gordon
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The Hamilton you already own is a wonderful and typical example of a modern Pratten style flute. Olwell's Pratten, for example, while it sounds a bit different from a Hamilton, is physically almost identical. Pratten style flutes don't vary as much as so-called Rudall types, although hybrid flutes, like Skip Healy's flute, while in many ways a Pratten, is a much thinner flute (but with widely spaced holes). So, if you find the Hamilton uncomfortable in your hands, by default, I'd suggest a Rudall-Rose style flute. But that doesn't solve all your potential problems.
Stuart is right, of course, in general, Rudalls are smaller holed and easier on the hands than a Pratten. But, they do vary as well, particularly in the hole-size and placement area. That's another comfort factor as individual as you are -- a thinner flute might still have large-hole placement that you might uncomfortable. You may find a flute that's perfect for you, as is, of course, or you may need to speak to whichever maker you decide to work with and discuss your hand size. In general, large bore conical D flutes are made for average to large men's hands. A maker can (sometimes) customize a flute to better fit a smaller hand. Depends, of course, on the maker.
Without customizing, Tom Aebi makes a very good flute and one you'll probably find more comfortable with smaller hands than the Hammy. Another maker you might want to go for that makes a slimmer flute is Lehart, in France. His are very slimmer flutes, only slightly quieter than the very loud Rudalls or even a Pratten. And then the list goes on -- Grinter, McGee (who makes an assortment), etc. So, yes -- try as many flutes as you can, but you've pretty much played a "typical" modern Pratten already.
Lastly, an allergy to blackwood is rare -- I'd really watch out, then, for cocus, which is a more typical reactive wood, if you lean toward skin-reactions. Go for a lip plate right up front on whatever you choose, and you'll probably save yourself some time down the road.
Best of luck,
Gordon
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gordon on 2003-01-26 15:26 ]</font>
Stuart is right, of course, in general, Rudalls are smaller holed and easier on the hands than a Pratten. But, they do vary as well, particularly in the hole-size and placement area. That's another comfort factor as individual as you are -- a thinner flute might still have large-hole placement that you might uncomfortable. You may find a flute that's perfect for you, as is, of course, or you may need to speak to whichever maker you decide to work with and discuss your hand size. In general, large bore conical D flutes are made for average to large men's hands. A maker can (sometimes) customize a flute to better fit a smaller hand. Depends, of course, on the maker.
Without customizing, Tom Aebi makes a very good flute and one you'll probably find more comfortable with smaller hands than the Hammy. Another maker you might want to go for that makes a slimmer flute is Lehart, in France. His are very slimmer flutes, only slightly quieter than the very loud Rudalls or even a Pratten. And then the list goes on -- Grinter, McGee (who makes an assortment), etc. So, yes -- try as many flutes as you can, but you've pretty much played a "typical" modern Pratten already.
Lastly, an allergy to blackwood is rare -- I'd really watch out, then, for cocus, which is a more typical reactive wood, if you lean toward skin-reactions. Go for a lip plate right up front on whatever you choose, and you'll probably save yourself some time down the road.
Best of luck,
Gordon
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gordon on 2003-01-26 15:26 ]</font>
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Gordon
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Bill;
Modest experience. I've played a few and have sat in on sessions where they were being played (including one with Skip, where I was the only flute player without a Healy), but I've never spent a good deal of time with one. Anyway, this is my take:
They are very good flutes, overall, with a strong and clear tone, an accurate rep for being very loud, but not to the disadvantage or sacrifice of tone, as some have implied. The ones I've played were very light (not keyed) and thinner than my Pratten, thinner, if this was not my imagination, than a Rudall. But the hole spacing was wide, so a small handed player may need to speak with Skip directly to accomodate personal preferences. He does do custom work, and is an extremely accessible person and a very nice guy.
The keywork on the keyed flutes is very good.
I personally think his flutes are top notch instruments, but they seem to have a divided
audience of fans and non-fans. I believe this is because they have a unique design some people are uncomfortable with, either visually or from being used to playing more "normal" flutes. That said, I think they look nice, if a bit utilitarian, clean lines, etc., and they sound and play well, and, all said, are not that odd to look at or play. I think they hold their own against pretty much any good maker out there, all things being highly subjective.
His prices are a bit high, in my opinion, especially the keyed flutes -- they just jump up and over most other makers, though the keyless is still within the more common price range. But they are very well made, solid, and you do get the flute in what for this industry is record time.
Modest experience. I've played a few and have sat in on sessions where they were being played (including one with Skip, where I was the only flute player without a Healy), but I've never spent a good deal of time with one. Anyway, this is my take:
They are very good flutes, overall, with a strong and clear tone, an accurate rep for being very loud, but not to the disadvantage or sacrifice of tone, as some have implied. The ones I've played were very light (not keyed) and thinner than my Pratten, thinner, if this was not my imagination, than a Rudall. But the hole spacing was wide, so a small handed player may need to speak with Skip directly to accomodate personal preferences. He does do custom work, and is an extremely accessible person and a very nice guy.
The keywork on the keyed flutes is very good.
I personally think his flutes are top notch instruments, but they seem to have a divided
audience of fans and non-fans. I believe this is because they have a unique design some people are uncomfortable with, either visually or from being used to playing more "normal" flutes. That said, I think they look nice, if a bit utilitarian, clean lines, etc., and they sound and play well, and, all said, are not that odd to look at or play. I think they hold their own against pretty much any good maker out there, all things being highly subjective.
His prices are a bit high, in my opinion, especially the keyed flutes -- they just jump up and over most other makers, though the keyless is still within the more common price range. But they are very well made, solid, and you do get the flute in what for this industry is record time.
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sturob
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Yeah, his prices bother me as well. Quite high. And the design is extreme enough that it's good he gives you time to try things out. I've owned two of his flutes, one in blackwood and one in Cooktown ironwood. I couldn't keep either very long because I only liked the design at first, and then didn't.
Something else to keep in mind is that Healy flutes seem to come up for sale often, and they stay on the block a long time. It's hard to compete with the fact that Skip has nearly everything in stock all the time, and his stuff is so expensive people usually aren't willing to come down on the price.
Just not for me. Might be right for you, though!
Stuart
Something else to keep in mind is that Healy flutes seem to come up for sale often, and they stay on the block a long time. It's hard to compete with the fact that Skip has nearly everything in stock all the time, and his stuff is so expensive people usually aren't willing to come down on the price.
Just not for me. Might be right for you, though!
Stuart