Irish trad on Boehm flute?

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Sat Jan 11, 2003 6:07 pm

On 2003-01-11 13:49, energy wrote:
I thought I'd point out that most of the Irish Boehm system players are from east Galway. Two of the best known examples of this style are Mike Rafferty and Jack Coen.

The east Galway style is noted becasue of it's sparse ornamentation, use of flat keys(made possible by the chromatic Boehm), and very melodic "flow". Anyway, the Galway style is very well suited to Boehm flute, so might want to look into it.

If you want a CD with east Galway flute playing, you could try Paddy Carty's "Traditional Music of Ireland", though he plays Radcliffe system and not Boehm. I'm not aware of any solo offerings from either Coen or Rafferty. Joe "Box" Burke also has a flute CD in the Galway style, and you could get the gist of the style from that, but he plays a simple system...I'm afraid I'm not aware of any CDs exclusively of Irish music played on Boehm system. Maybe somone could give some references...?

First, Jack does not play a Boehm flute, and while Mike did for a bit when he came to the US, he no longer uses one and hasn't for years. East Galway music, by and large, does not and has never prefered the use of the Boehm flute. The Radcliffe system that Carty used is an exception, and using a Boehm in ITM is pretty much a rarity across the board.

That said, I agree that the Boehm flute is another choice for playing flute and it has it's advantages. Switching to a wooden flute if you're already comfortable with a Boehm is a tricky move, but if you really want to play ITM, it's worth the switch. If it's just a dabbling interest, I'd stay on the Boehm. As stated in earlier posts, music comes from the player, and if you really understand the music, it can be played on a Boehm. Or on an Oboe. Your musicianship and understanding of the music is what's important, not necessarily the choice of instrument.

I really wouldn't recommend the "Complete Irish Flute Book," BTW, although their hearts are in the right place. As Jack said to me, when I showed up for my first lesson with a silver Boehm and that book, "Well, it's someone's idea of what Irish music should sound like, anyway." I started working directly from O'Neill's after that..

[ This Message was edited by: Gordon on 2003-01-11 19:22 ]

Mal · Post by **Mal** » Sat Jan 11, 2003 6:34 pm

I understand that Boehm's preference was for his flute was a wooden head on a metal body.
I should think that would make an otherwise cylindrical metal flute a lot more "Irish".

Have any of you guys had experience with this
combination, and if so what (or whose) wooden head would you suggest getting?

Mal

energy · Post by **energy** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 1:21 am

On 2003-01-11 19:07, Gordon wrote:

First, Jack does not play a Boehm flute, and while Mike did for a bit when he came to the US, he no longer uses one and hasn't for years. East Galway music, by and large, does not and has never prefered the use of the Boehm flute. The Radcliffe system that Carty used is an exception, and using a Boehm in ITM is pretty much a rarity across the board.

Wow, that goes against all popular knowledge. What are your sources?

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 7:57 am

On 2003-01-12 02:21, energy wrote:
On 2003-01-11 19:07, Gordon wrote:

First, Jack does not play a Boehm flute, and while Mike did for a bit when he came to the US, he no longer uses one and hasn't for years. East Galway music, by and large, does not and has never prefered the use of the Boehm flute. The Radcliffe system that Carty used is an exception, and using a Boehm in ITM is pretty much a rarity across the board.
Wow, that goes against all popular knowledge. What are your sources?

I studied with Jack for about a year when I first started out, and have met and have been in sessions with Mike Rafferty and know many of his students. Mike plays an Olwell -- there's a great interview with him on Brad Hurley's site, which is mentioned here (with e-address) on an earlier thread, where he discusses his time on a silver, and his return to wood, many many years ago (as well as mentioning his musical friendship with Jack).
Jack's usual flute is a very beaten-up small-holed English flute (makes Cathal's flute look mint.) He sold me my first wood flute, an old German, which he played for a bit, and he has several others, all rather beaten up. Last I saw him, he was still on his old faithful. He will teach ITM to a student on a Boehm, but he is uncomfortable on one himself. As a teacher, he is more a proponent of teaching the tunes and the rhythms than the technique (embouchure, ornaments, etc.). He has certainly never recorded on Boehm (to my knowledge, neither has Mike) and they both have a number of recordings to their credit. Jack recently recorded a CD with his son Jimmy on guitar that I understand is his most authentic work to date (that sounds the most like him in person, and that he and Jimmy had the most control over). I have not had a chance to hear it myself, but understand it is very good. If you don't believe me

, check out the photos on "the Branch Line" and "Warming up" -- Jack's not holding a Boehm there!
There are very few examples of prominent players of ITM on a modern Boehm, which is why Joanie Madden has become the poster-child for those that want to point out that it can be done. She's very good, of course, but, as I say, not really a typical "woodenflute" player (because of the Boehm and subsequent exploitation of odd keys to play in)and many argue that her sound lacks the "sound". I somewhat disagree -- I think she sounds fine, myself.

[ This Message was edited by: Gordon on 2003-01-12 09:03 ]

tin tin · Post by **tin tin** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 9:50 am

I know that Jack Coen and Mike Rafferty use wooden flutes, but I think they were recommended as fine exponents of the East Galway style.
Actually, Mike and Mary Rafferty and Donal Clancy are playing at the Blarney Star (in Manhattan) on the 31st...I plan on attending.
I got a chance to look at the Mel Bay Irish Flute book, and it seemed over-complicated to me, with the myriad of cut, tap, and roll options presented for different keys, etc. I think I'll be better off letting my ears guide my fingers.
Micah

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 2:04 pm

On 2003-01-12 10:50, Micah wrote:
I know that Jack Coen and Mike Rafferty use wooden flutes, but I think they were recommended as fine exponents of the East Galway style.
Actually, Mike and Mary Rafferty and Donal Clancy are playing at the Blarney Star (in Manhattan) on the 31st...I plan on attending.
I got a chance to look at the Mel Bay Irish Flute book, and it seemed over-complicated to me, with the myriad of cut, tap, and roll options presented for different keys, etc. I think I'll be better off letting my ears guide my fingers.
Micah

Micah -- my saying they played wooden flutes was for Nate, who seemed to believe it was commonly thought otherwise, though I'm not sure commonly by whom.
I think any style that appeals to you is the one you should start with. If you're proficient on a Boehm, then less simplistic styles are just as possible, and may even mask some of the Boehm's tonal differences.
The problem IMHO with the Mel Bay book was more the settings than it's being overly complicated; you could use or not use the ornaments, but in most cases their interpretation of the tunes themselves left much to be desired.

[ This Message was edited by: Gordon on 2003-01-12 15:06 ]

SuiZen · Post by **SuiZen** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 3:41 pm

Micah,

I believe I was the one that suggested "looking" - implying not buying the Mel Bay book without first looking at it.

I purchased the book, and came to the same conclusion as you. I subsequently sold it on eBay, and made someone happy with the bargain winning bid.

I wonder if the book has value to a Boehm flutist, with no knowledge of the Irish ornaments, wanting a book to get started (assuming no teacher)? If a flutist can play what's in the Mel Bay book, albeit it's overly complicated, they can easily play the tunes with "proper" settings. However, I'd not use this approach myself, nor would I recommend it.

_________________
Bill_D

[ This Message was edited by: SuiZen on 2003-01-12 16:50 ]

kkrell · Post by **kkrell** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 8:52 pm

On 2003-01-11 14:51, Micah wrote:
As far as recordings exclusively with Boehm flute, all I know of is Joanie Madden (with Cherish the Ladies), and Noel Rice (with Baal Tinne), who I've never heard.
http://my.ais.net/~krice/baal%20tinne.htm

There's a track of Noel Rice on the Wooden Flute Obsession CDs, with a short MP3 clip at http://www.worldtrad.org/WFO_CD2.htm . There are probably clips on the Baal Tinne site.

Kevin Krell

michaelS · Post by **michaelS** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 1:22 am

In response to Micahs question about E rolls in the boehm, I play them a number of ways, depending on the tune, and which octave they are in. I allways play the E roll without E flat key (at leat in an ITM context), and the "tap" part of the roll I just play a very fast D. For the "cut' part I normally play it the same as on the simple system flute, momentarily lifting of the 4th finger on the letf hand,so for a split second I play this
xxoxx0 with the thumb key closed. this works in "both" octaves.
As an alternative,I also often just monentary lift up the thumb key, while fingering the E. This only works well in the bottom ocatve, as the flute takes a while to sound the E again when the thumb key is depressed.
Another approach, that I mainly use in the second octave is to use xxx0x0 as the cut.
I hpoe this is comprehesible and usefull for someone.
Michael Spicer

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 8:21 am

So Nate, what are YOUR sources of information on what Jack and Mike Play, hmm???

Loren

energy · Post by **energy** » Wed Jan 15, 2003 12:15 pm

On 2003-01-13 09:21, Loren wrote:
So Nate, what are YOUR sources of information on what Jack and Mike Play, hmm???

Loren

Well, gosh Loren, you almost sound like you're trying to be provocative with that question...

Quite honestly, I wasn't well informed, and I apologize for deseminating(or however it's spelled) ideas that now appear to be false.

I think it's fairly reasonable, that I, having my preconcieved notions challenged, would wonder where Gordon was getting his information from. He has fully satisfied my curiosity...

As for where I got my misinformed opinions...well, I read somewhere that Mike Rafferty plays Boehm system flute. No more than that. Yes, I know, I shouldn't belive everything I read(but I do anyway)...as for Jack Coen, I had thought that he played Boehm system flute because I thought that he was where Joannie Madden had inherited the idea from, knowing that he taught her. All well...maybe next time I won't jump in on something I know nothing about(yeah, right).

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Wed Jan 15, 2003 4:08 pm

Nate, I had no problem with your asking. Joanie did study with Jack, but mostly as a young girl, and mostly, as far as I know, on whistle. I think her final flute influences were from folks like Mike Rafferty and players like Marcus Hernon, but that is based more on interviews and guesswork, so don't quote me. Mike, as I understand it, played a Boehm during the days when finding a playable wooden flute was difficult, and went back as soon as he found a well-made wooden flute (an Olwell, as it turns out, before anyone knew the name).
Getting back to the thread topic, obviously, Joanie is a fine example of someone using the Boehm effectively for Irish playing. It becomes subjective, of course, whether it sounds exactly "as it should", tonally. The obvious advantages to a Boehm is it's chromatic abilities, which she exploits by playing tunes in odd keys. A wooden flute player has to actually changes flutes, Eb, F, etc. to play in these keys. Fortunately, most trad music demands little in the way of chromatic playing within a tune, and, impressed though I am by players like Skip who do chromatic runs on their keyed wooden flutes, I don't care much for the sudden bursts of jazzy chromatic runs in the context of trad playing. But again, this is a taste thing. Joanie, interestingly, keeps things pretty traditional, outside of her key choices, in spite of her instrument's chromatic capabilities.
I think if a player is strong on the Boehm, already, and really wants to explore (or is already saturated) with traditional music, then the Boehm is a natural choice. A wood or custom head made to sound more 19th century will probably solve most of the "modern" tonal problems. But I would not really recommend the Boehm if trad music is the music being pursued and the player is either just starting out on flutes in general, or if the wooden flute is their familiar instrument. There's too much work involved in making the instrument (the Boehm) sound different than it was intended.

JessieK · Post by **JessieK** » Wed Jan 15, 2003 4:51 pm

Joanie also took some lessons from a woman named Jayna Nelson, who helped Joanie to pick out her first Miyazawa.

michaelS · Post by **michaelS** » Fri Jan 17, 2003 8:27 am

I found a bit of time today to record a few tunes on the boehm, an emerson model 8. They are a bit rough, but it is the best I could do in the time available (I was actually teaching at the time!). They are recorded in the studio control room, so there is no natural reverb, using a Rode classic tube mic. There is no eq, compression, reverb, editing etc, so it is a "warts and all" recording. At least it documents what a normal person attempting to play ITM on a silver flute can sound like. The mp3 files can be found at

http://www.electricmuse.com/irish_sg/mi ... _flute.htm

Michael Spicer

kkrell · Post by **kkrell** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 4:43 am

On 2003-01-17 09:27, michaelS wrote:
I found a bit of time today to record a few tunes on the boehm, an emerson model 8.

Nice to have those examples. It seems that by playing with the same "attack" as an Irish flute you can get some of the tone and articulation. The fingering seems a bit awkward at that speed, perhaps due to the fingering for F#, and the noise of the mechanism is very apparent.

Kevin Krell