FAQ help: Second octave D fingering - why vent?

[pancelticpiper]

...the element of undertones from the fundamental in the resulting sound... will get a wolfy sound or drop the octave unintentionally...

Those are the sorts of things which make me favour the closed middle D.

I much prefer "pushing" or "honking" the D's, both bottom D and middle D, and the closed middle D just has more "honk" to it.

Playing with pristine, pure vented middle D's sounds prissy to me, and is not my cup of tea.

[pancelticpiper]

I do think it is quite legitimate to call the vented fingering "normal" or "standard" - as others have said, it is the fingering given in every historic fingering chart for (western)transverse flute I have ever seen from as far back as there are such things, and it is clearly the most commonly in use even among ITM fluters and whistlers.

1) the fingerings which show up in baroque/classical fingering charts do not necessarily have anything to do with practice amongst traditional musicians.

2) I question the assertion that the vented middle D is the most common fingering among traditional Irish players. Most traditional Irish players I've come across use the closed middle D. The vast majority of non-traditional non-Irish players I've come across use the vented middle D, probably because they saw it printed in a fingering chart somewhere. Had they learned from a genuine traditional Irish player, they might instead use the closed D.
But my impressions are not at all scientific. It would be interesting indeed if someone were to analyse the playing of a load of genuine traditional Irish players and see which fingering is actually most common.
You might find out things you didn't expect: such as, quite a few genuine Irish traditional players I've run across never use the C natural fingering, and all the tunes which we're used to hearing C naturals in, use C sharps. What's really odd is when they play tunes such as Rakish Paddy, Chicago Reel, etc etc with C sharps througout. I'm talking very good players, born and raised in Clare, who learned to play back in the 40's and 50's.

[johnkerr]

But my impressions are not at all scientific. It would be interesting indeed if someone were to analyse the playing of a load of genuine traditional Irish players and see which fingering is actually most common.

I've been playing Irish flute for close to 20 years now, and in the absence of any teachers in my locality when I started off I took to attending summer schools to get what exposure I could to real traditional players. Over the years I've spent time in instructional settings with Jack Coen, Seamus Egan, Catherine McEvoy, Marcas O Murchu, John Wynne, Kevin Crawford, Paul McGrattan, Mike Rafferty, June McCormack and several others I can't recall at the moment. The topic of closed or open second octave D of course has come up a good few times in all those classes, although for the life of me I can only recall the positions of two of those players on the matter. Jack Coen, who was my first exposure to a true Irish flute player and for about five years my only exposure to one, always said that it didn't matter whether you kept that hole open or not. But he didn't, and so I didn't either. It didn't seem to matter either to any of the other teachers I encountered (or so I recall) until I had a class with June McCormack in East Durham a couple of years ago. She was adamant that the second octave D always be played with the open hole, and when I challenged her that it didn't make any difference in the sound she made me play it both ways and it became clear that the note actually does sound a little better with the hole open. But by then I was too set in my playing ways and have never made the switch. Really, I don't think it's that important in comparison with the many other things that factor into good Irish flute playing. As for what most traditional players do, I've actually not paid much attention to it even though I know boatloads of flute players who are much better than I am. My unscientific guess though is that a majority of them play with the hole closed, for the same reasons that pancelticpiper does. You can do a lot more with that note if the hole is closed.

[jim stone]

'You can do a lot more with that note if the hole is closed.'

Will you please say something more about this? Very interested.
I'm playing it closed lately.

[johnkerr]

What pancelticpiper said upthread.

[jim stone]

Thanks.

The closed note is rougher, it seems to me, with more overtones.
Open it's purer and sings. It does seem to me there is more
potential for expression in the closed note. I find it's also tending to play
more flat, unless pushed.

I believe (but don't know) that Mike Rafferty plays it closed.

[jemtheflute]

I think we're getting a bit circular now. All good stuff, with the main differing approaches well explained and illustrated, but time to stop now unless anyone has something not already said to add? (As in; please read the up-thread material thoroughly before posting!) The point was to explain the issue primarily from a technical (how it actually works) angle to those who ask newbie Qs, though not ignoring stylistic and aesthetic variety. It was not to have an issue-obfuscating group navel gaze amongst the more advanced with different aesthetic perspectives. Flagging up those perspectives is worthwhile; having a tediously repetitive row about them helps no-one.

[Carey]

... there is more potential for expression in the closed note.

Can I just state the obvious that being able to play the D any which way gives the most latitude for expression of all? Let the tune and the mood choose the fingering for you. I always use the vented D in "Down By The Sally Gardens" but the un-vented one for "Donnybrook Fair" for example. Sheesh. Why would anyone stick to only one? (DON'T ANSWER THAT! Or start a thread someplace else about when one or the other.)

C

It does too.
It does not.
Yes it does!
No it doesn't!
Well I think it does.
And I know it doesn't.

[bradhurley]

time to stop now unless anyone has something not already said to add? (As in; please read the up-thread material thoroughly before posting!)

C'mon Jem, you know how things work around here.

[jemtheflute]

C'mon Jem, you know how things work around here.

Indeed I do - rueful grin smiley needed! You can't blame a guy for trying, though! It might even work this once........

I think this has been a pretty successful and positive thread thus far - let's quit while we're ahead and before it becomes yet another one that will merely confuse newbies rather than enlighten them and give them usable guidance.

[benhall.1]

So. Remind me. Why vent?

[jemtheflute]

So. Remind me. Why vent?

You don't need to know. Go fiddle (with) something (modish). It'd be safer.

Alternative answer: what else to do with spleen?

[Gabriel]

I think it doesn't matter which D one plays.

When starting out with the whistle some five years ago I used to play the middle D with xxx xxx, but I found out that I could hit the D better with oxx xx. So I sticked to it.

On the flute, I use the vented D exclusively when playing dance music/sessions. I can play the vented Ds at session speed without problems, so I do it. Hitting the D just right is less of a gamble that way, especially if it's too loud to hear my playing properly. It really does not matter to me if the tone is different. Nobody will hear it anyway. If playing alone, with the band (microphone) and especially on slow pieces or airs, I sometimes use the un-vented D as a special effect or so, i.e. if sliding from hard D to middle D. But I actually like my "hard middle D".

[chas]

Graeme - that is certainly interesting about Chris Norman. What rationale did he give?

Re: such luminaries as Messrs Coen and Rafferty as well as Norman advocating the closed fingering - fine, I'm not arguing as such (and was careful not to be exclusive about the matter in my OP), but I am puzzled as to why anyone finds it "easier" or "less work". "Going over the break" - the all-fingers-together-having-to-hit-or-lift-cleanly-and-simultaneously change from ooo ooo to either oxx xxx or xxx xxx or the opposite is usually found to be awkward by beginners whatever and takes a significant amount of practice when one is at that stage.

I think "advocate" is a bit of an exaggeration as to how Chris Norman feels (and I realize I may have added to that impression ). As Graeme said, he generally doesn't vent in his own playing, and he has his reasons for it. In my experience, it's more that he doesn't advocate venting, and he encourages players to do whatever's comfortable. He also recognizes that a lot of passages, possibly most, are easier without trying to lift LH1.

In your example, you're absolutely right that going from C or C# to D really cries for venting, and I do in that case. But what about the rest of the notes? Wouldn't you say that playing an ede triplet is easier without fiddling with LH1? For me, except for C/C#, the transition to d seems easier without venting.

[Cork]

...Re: the Eb key thing - as I've often said elsewhere on C&F, that is NOT a Bohm thing. Go back to those historic fingering charts from early Baroque when the Eb key was introduced through our kind of C19th flutes up to modern Bohm flutes - they all vent Eb most of the time, just as on Bohm (some differences of precise detail, but same principle)...

Well, in essence that's true. For instance, although the Boehm Concert flute is commonly known as a flute in C, perhaps upon closer examination it could be seen as a D flute, but in disguise. That is, perhaps upon even closer examination the Boehm Concert flute could be seen as a one-key Baroque D flute, but in an even deeper disguise, after all.

Small world, eh?

;-)