Why admire the "geezers"?

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Harry
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Post by Harry »

Bono wrote-
Sorry I don’t have a web site, or anything to sell.<<

Neither do I (have anything to sell), you'll notice that my site directs you to Claddagh records, they own the only thing for sale that has anything to do with my site, my dough is loooong since spent :sad: . I am also not afraid to put my name to the CD so I don't have any buttons to be pushed there. You're awfully ambiguous for a fellow Belfastian ( or Belfastard as some might say), are spades no longer spades up there, Bono? (I prefer Bono, Harry is'nt sitting well for me).

Regards, Harry.

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and again-
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Post by U2 »

Harry - Just trying to address the topic. Wind your neck in (there's a Belfastard term one to another). And as you are very interested in my handle, it has to do with a US spy plane and is unrelated to Bono, or his band. You may want to ask Mr. Wisely why there is no requirement to use proper names. I'm not certain I understand your approach. Did I address your questions adequately? Feel free to contact me off board via email if you want to discuss anything about me personally. All the best.
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Harry
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Post by Harry »

[quote]
On 2002-10-04 12:22, U2 wrote:
Harry - Just trying to address the topic. Wind your neck in (there's a Belfastard term one to another). And as you are very interested in my handle, it has to do with a US spy plane and is unrelated to Bono, or his band. You may want to ask Mr. Wisely why there is no requirement to use proper names.<<<<<

I have no problem with the rule, just the people that use it. :smile:

Best, 007.

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Post by U2 »

Harry - I really enjoy your music and will provide you whatever information you need to know about me off board if you decide it a requirement. Until then cheers. Steve
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Post by Gordon »

Well, not to keep the guitar-thread going, but mentioning Clapton was an interesting choice, since I used him to justify my playing Irish music in the first place. The fact is, he plays blues fantastically (when he's not doing insipid pop anthems, but I digress), without living in the Delta, being American, and not being, well, some other thing I've forgotten now... When I first started playing Irish music, my old rocker friends asked me what an American, non-Irish, and decidedly untraditional person like me finds of interest in this alien music. The answer, of course, is the music itself, which reaches me in ways I can't begin to explain, not unlike the way the blues touched Clapton (and half of England at the time, though few went on to actually absorb it the way he did). And absorbing it is what's necessary, feeling the music, not being Irish or living on a peat bog. Otherwise, half the young Irishmen couldn't play it well either, 'cause not many alive remember Frank McCourt's Limerick or the potato famine, either. But, being humans, we tend to understand the human condition without necessarily living through it.
Back to the geezers, what they do that many others don't, is focus on the spirit behind the tune, they let the tune -- not the technique (of which they have/had plenty, but that's been said many times over in earlier posts) -- be their guide. Someone a while back on the Woodenflute list said that when you play, you should play so that the old ghosts can dance -- that description stuck in my head, and I've never forgotten to think that way when I approach a tune. You can live anywhere, but if you play so that the old ghosts can dance, you'll smell the peat, walk the moors, and confound the naysayers that say a white Englishman can't play the blues!
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Azalin
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Post by Azalin »

In another thread, Brad Hurley posted a link to a Catherine McEvoy interview, and there's some very interesting stuff relating to this thread, like slow vs fast, etc. I though it might be of interest to some. I personally found the interview very interesting.

<a href='http://www.firescribble.net/flute/mcevo ... oy.html</a>
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Post by Jayhawk »

Hey! My ex-uncle (well, he's not "ex" but he's no longer married to my aunt) wrote several of those "insipid" pop anthems Clapton plays (Cocaine, After Midnight). Perhaps they're not the tunes you're referring to, but they are a lot bluesier when done by the writer than by Clapton.

Anyway, I digress (and with no animosity)...

I think it is possible to feel deeply connected to a music or culture when you have no relation to it. I think music is an inherently soulful thing. Certain tunes, when well played, speak much deeper than notes on a page or a simple melody. While I may admire a musicians technicality, if they don't speak deeper than that I'm not impressed by their playing. As stated several times before, the old geezers often could tap into the soul of the music exceptionally well, as do some of the more "current" musicians. To me, the most important point isn't whether they are old school or new school, but whether or not they have made the music really speak as opposed to simply reciting the notes.

Eric
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Post by peeplj »

I started flute playing on classical with some dabblings in early music, put it down after college, and didn't pick it up again for years.

When I did pick it up again, it was almost starting from scratch, trying to learn to play Irish tunes on an old German 8-key.

There is a pattern to the kind of music I've been drawn to, and it's a pattern that's led me towards the "geezers."

My fist exposure was to "Celtic" compilations, some of it very new-agey, some of it pure drek--but it at least let me know that there was an Irish music out there and started me on my search.

From there found some of the modern recordings and fell in love with them, especially Danu and Altan and the Cheiftains, and Matt Molloy's solo work.

Now from there my tastes are moving back towards an earlier time, and I'm trying to learn to put some of what I hear into my playing. (This is not the same kind of intensive research Harry has done...this is me imitating more than assimilating I'm afraid but I'll take what I can get.)

Especially on flute a major difference I hear is the modern players often have a very legato style and a very "slick" tone, very polished. The older players are often not so legato but have much more separation, and are more likely to have a harsher, earthier tone and not quite so much polish and sheen on their sound.

One reason I've got a Hammy flute on the way is for that stronger, earthier sound. I like my Seery for the same reason.

Best,

--James
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Azalin
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Post by Azalin »

Well I'm happy to hear that, especially that I've got also a Hammy on the way...
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Post by ErikT »

Here are two examples of the qeezers, taken from Rich's website.

Josie McDermott - http://www.lafferty.ca/music/flute-geezers/jmc3.mp3

Patsy Hanley - http://www.lafferty.ca/music/flute-geezers/patsyh1.mp3

I'd say that based upon these two recordings (selected almost entirely at random) the players possessed great technical skill and are certainly worthy for a listen.

They sound like kitchen tracks to me, however. Put them on a nice condensor mic, add some reverb, put a beefy bodhran behind them and maybe some well done rhythm guitar and I think that it would sound as polished as any modern recording.

There are some geezers, though, that I wouldn't say that of. Some were not great technical musicians, but were respected for their knowledge of the tradition and bredth of tunes. It's Ok to say that, too. Respect them for what they were known for; no need to inflate their abilities beyond that.

Erik

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ErikT on 2003-01-09 13:23 ]</font>
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Post by kenr »

This is a huge and fascinating thread and there is some really vital stuff here. Erik's last comments are key. Many of the older (pre 70s)LPs were kitchen recordings, often made by people who didn't know the player particularly well. Would you expect them to perform up the the standard of say Crawford or Harry Bradley who I guess know their way round a studio. Josie McDermott got £200 to make Darby's Farewell and most of those tracks are first takes. If you heard the same tunes down the pub they would sound a lot better/different. Don't write off anything pre-1990 on the basis of the technology or the lack of rock or jazz based accompaniment to make it "acceptable".

I'm not trying to push any sort of traditional snobbery particularly to US players where access to traditional players who have grown up with the music may be harder than it is for those of us in the British isles. It is a question of the heritage these "old geezers" represent and the soul they bring to expressing that tradition. Given a choice between a session tape of say Paddy Carty or Vincent Broderick against Kevin Crawford or Gary Shannon, I know I would expect to learn more from the old guys than the others - no offence to the other two I'd have their tapes any day - but it's down to what Steve said at the top of the thread about Casey. There's just something going on that hooks me every time with the older players. I can't really express it in words but you know what it is when you hear it.

Ken
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Post by susnfx »

I'm certainly not as knowledgeable or eloquent as many posting on this thread, but I'd like to chime in anyway. Why do we have to choose? I enjoy listening to the geezer clips on BroSteve's site and I'm learning a lot from them, but I also enjoy Kevin Crawford and many others. I respect the older music, but I also believe that trad evolves. Just because the newer players do things differently, I really don't believe that makes them wrong.
Susan
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Post by kenr »

Susan, you're dead right we shouldn't have to choose, but Jamie started this thread by saying he couldn't recommend any recording before 1990 and definitely nothing before 1970. I'm with you on seeing something of merit and by analogy something worth incorporating into my own playing in any and every flute player I listen to.

Jimmy O'Brien-Moran said to me many years ago that if you hear something you like you should nick it straight away. Sound advice I have followed ever since, but I would never exclude anything on the basis of age as Jamie suggested. All I think I'm saying is I think there may be more to nick from the old guys than the new. - maybe it's just my personal taste.

Ken
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Post by Gordon »

No, I agree with you, Ken. I think the older players, frankly, did more interesting things with tunes, yet still manage to leave them identifiable tunes to be passed along. Newer bands or players on CD or in concert seem to thrive on making things more acceptable to a wider and, admittedly, more sophisticated listening audience, bucking the trends, and in doing so leave less to learn from at its root.
This doesn't apply to all younger players, BTW -- there are plenty that fit quite comfortably, to my mind, in with the geezers, and all of them are quite capable of playing as well or better, and it is these player who I feel keep the tradition moving. They learned from the old guys, they make their changes, we learn from them and the old guys, etc.
Yes, it's a shame that some of those "kitchen" tapes were recorded on shabby equipment in less-than-desirable acoustical settings (sadder still we don't have recording of those same guys in session, rather than sitting stiffly at their kitchen tables), but what they do have is still there to hear. Our growing inability to hear music without reverb and bothersome bodhrans, etc. is more damaging to the tradition than any number of musical innovations taking place. The musical innovations will either come and go with the trends, or stick around and become part of the noise. Not being able to hear the music without production is almost like going deaf.
Oh, and Eric, no -- those were not the Clapton tunes I was thinking of... :smile:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gordon on 2003-01-09 21:10 ]</font>
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Post by ErikT »

On 2003-01-09 20:40, Gordon wrote:
Newer bands or players on CD or in concert seem to thrive on making things more acceptable to a wider and, admittedly, more sophisticated listening audience, bucking the trends, and in doing so leave less to learn from at its root.
Gordon, can you give us a clarification on what you mean here? I'm not sure that I understand.

Erik
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