Requesting Advice on Low Bb Flutes

[paddler]

I've been lusting after a low Bb flute for a while now, but after a little research I can see that issues of ergonomics, particularly with regard to the extra stretch required on a Bb, need to be taken seriously. Before I commit a lot of money I'd be grateful if those of you with experience playing/making/testing low Bb flutes could share your thoughts on the following issues, or others I may have overlooked:

* How much worse is the stretch on a typical Bb than a typical D flute? (I currently play a Copley D and don't have much problem covering the holes.)

* Assuming one can reach at all, how likely is the additional stretch to cause injury problems such as tendonitis as you approach the limit of what you can reach?

* Do you experience problems switching back and forth between D and Bb flutes?

* With ergonomically placed holes how close can you get to the stretch of a typical D flute?

* Are there any disadvantages to the various strategies used for ergonomic hole placement, such as offset hole placement, holes drilled slanted, and reduced hole size, etc?

* What are your thoughts on the merits of using Siccama keys for the L3 and R3 holes?

Thanks!

Jon

[AaronMalcomb]

*Stretch varies some from maker to maker. Some have minimal difference, some very noticeable. The other thing to consider is overall length. The finger holes are further away from the headjoint.

*Seeing as bansuri players play with huge stretch and finger holes, it's humanly possible to avoid stress and injury. It depends on your grip and posture.

*I think that would be something that varies from person to person not mention the make of flute.

*Pretty close but again it won't resolve the overall length issue.

*Depending on the extremity of offset it may invite problems as well as eliminate some. But usually makers will try and customize it to your needs to avoid these problems.

[Gabriel]

Hey paddler,

I got a new and lovely Lehart Bb recently, and the Lehart Bb is one of the harder Bb flutes to hold.

1. The stretch is quite a bit more. My D flute is an Aebi Pratten I and have no issues with holding it, and the span of the Lehart also isn't a problem, but the distance from the embouchure hole to the first tone hole is. The best hint I have is: relax!

2. No idea here. The key is to relax as much as possible, most of the stress that causes problems is created by the player. The flute won't fall off your hands. Relax!

3. After playing the Bb flute, my D flute feels like an F flute and the embouchure and a honkin' D are so much easier. I usually do my warm-upping on the big one.

4. I once tried a Casey Burns Bb flute that wasn't much different to a D flute (save the distance from embouchure to first tone hole!). Aebi Bb flutes are also very easy on the hands. You'll have to lip up/down some notes to be in tune probably.

5. No idea. Slanted holes are common in the recorder world, as offset holes are. I personally don't like offset holes, but that's just me, and I tried a very early Aebi Pratten with a slanted C# hole which worked just fine. Reduced hole sizes combined with moving the holes up to the embouchure usually affect sound and volume a bit. Extremey small holes may result in a weak and unstable tone.

6. Siccama keys are a great possibility for the small-handed to be able to play the big flutes. You loose a bit of control (sliding into different notes etc.), but that's better than being unable to play the big ones at all, eh?

Greetings,
G.

[jim stone]

I've been lusting after a low Bb flute for a while now, but after a little research I can see that issues of ergonomics, particularly with regard to the extra stretch required on a Bb, need to be taken seriously. Before I commit a lot of money I'd be grateful if those of you with experience playing/making/testing low Bb flutes could share your thoughts on the following issues, or others I may have overlooked:

* How much worse is the stretch on a typical Bb than a typical D flute? (I currently play a Copley D and don't have much problem covering the holes.)

* Assuming one can reach at all, how likely is the additional stretch to cause injury problems such as tendonitis as you approach the limit of what you can reach?

* Do you experience problems switching back and forth between D and Bb flutes?

* With ergonomically placed holes how close can you get to the stretch of a typical D flute?

* Are there any disadvantages to the various strategies used for ergonomic hole placement, such as offset hole placement, holes drilled slanted, and reduced hole size, etc?

* What are your thoughts on the merits of using Siccama keys for the L3 and R3 holes?

Thanks!

Jon

It's worse but not much. Casey Burns, Pat Olwell make playable Bb flutes...doubtless others do too.
If you have medium or larger men's hands you should be OK. Piper's grip helps too.
Unlikely you will get injured.

No problems switching flutes. Playing D flute is lovely after the Bb, like swinging one
bat after two.

I'm not aware of disadvantages to offset holes, etc. I find this sort of thing
helpful. Also ergonomics is a matter of degree. I find a little goes a long way,
personally.

The Siccama keys sound like a great idea, but I've never got my fins on a flute
with them.

If you don't have small hands and you are playing a D flute comfortably
and if you're (if all else fails) willing to use piper's grip, I
would predict you will be OK. Best to talk personally
to a maker.

[Herb]

This will sound like an odd reply, perhaps, but it is perfectly feasible to lay out the hole positions and the embouchure location on a large diameter dowel (say, a mop handle) and get a sense of how it will feel to manage the stretch. Most makers I know will provide you with the measurements. As was mentioned above, the distance from the embouchure to the left hand position is a significant factor. On my Bb flute (a McGee, which I love) it is the left hand position, not the right hand reach, which takes careful management since it is much further from your face than for a D flute.

Since I am prone to some problems with my hands, I'm very careful to stretch and loosen up beforehand, and to make sure that I am playing with as little unnecessary tension as possible. That said, I have only average sized hands and can play my McGee, which is a big flute by any measure, with either piper's grip or regular grip.

I did own a Tipple B flute which I had made with offset holes. I found it difficult to use piper's grip on that flute. What was feasible, for the right hand, was to cover the bottom hole with the pinky instead of the ring finger. I think this would only be possible for me with offset holes. It was a surprisingly easy adjustment to make.

I should add that the McGee plays more evenly and better in tune than any other Bb flute I have ever played. There is always a trade off of some kind when significant changes are made to tone hole sizes and locations for the sake of an easy reach. Siccama keys are very promising, and I own an antique Siccama (in D) which has some real virtues. Just remember that slides, half holes, shading and finger vibrato are not very practical on the third finger holes of both hands.

Hope this helps.
Herb

[plunk111]

1 - How much worse is the stretch on a typical Bb than a typical D flute? (I currently play a Copley D and don't have much problem covering the holes.)
2 - Assuming one can reach at all, how likely is the additional stretch to cause injury problems such as tendonitis as you approach the limit of what you can reach?
3 - Do you experience problems switching back and forth between D and Bb flutes?
4 - With ergonomically placed holes how close can you get to the stretch of a typical D flute?
5 - Are there any disadvantages to the various strategies used for ergonomic hole placement, such as offset hole placement, holes drilled slanted, and reduced hole size, etc?
6 - What are your thoughts on the merits of using Siccama keys for the L3 and R3 holes?

I recently (a little over a week ago) got one of Casey Burns' low Bb flutes in boxwood. Actually, it was one of his "seconds", but I kinda LIKE the "defects". Anyway, to your questions:
1 - The stretch is only slightly more than on my D flute (a McGee) - I thought I'd have to use a pipers' grip, but I don't even have to do this. Matter-of-fact, I used to have a Copley and I think the stretch is about the same as the Copley (but it's been a while).
2 - No problem with the stretch, so no tendonitis
3 - I find the Bb takes a bit more air and a bit more finesse, but, if anything, my D flute playing has improved since playing the Bb! The only other difficulty is the first few moments with the Bb as my arms are noticeably farther out due to the extra length.
4 - I find the stretch about the same. I have been rotating the lower 3 holes a bit away from center line - it works for me. Casey's flutes do have the ergonomic finger hole spacing (if you want them). I would have been fine with "straight" holes, but mine came with the ergo holes.
5 - No
6 - I don't think keys are necessary, at least with a Burns flute

Pat

[rama]

i play a grinter (8key), his model is based on measurements from an old rr bflat. tonehole placement is no problem at all, but i find the bore diameter near the upperhand is thicker than a d flute, so rockstro-ish grip there has a slightly different feel for me. however the rotation of neck, internal rotation of front shoulder, and flexion at both the elbow and wrist joint, are more of an issue for me when i play bflat. this adjustment made in my posture is so i can reach the toneholes which are farther away from the embouchure hole than a d flute.
strangely, i only play it in the wintertime, maybe i get in the mood then, but i ease into it, letting my body adjust, so practice sessions are limited at first until my body adjusts gets comfortable, and i do exercise (neck, shoulder, elbow, wrist) to relieve any residual strain patterns from becoming chronic. that's the secret for me.
since the tube is longer, it seems bflat flute is less forgiving of any minor fluctuations of the air column, maybe the soundwave is more sensitive i don't know but you have to stay in the pocket to go the extra distance. if you cannot do that on d flute then a bflat will be a struggle. playing bflat flute is great for developing tone, so on the d flute the control of tone seems like nothing.
a flute pitched in b would be a more interesting choice imo, and cflute would be more useful, as an initiate into the world of lower pitch funkdome. 2 cents...

[dontf]

I have a Burns Bb/C combo, I love the sound of both bodies but actually use the C much more often. the reach and comfort level with the C body is not much more reach for the arms than a D. I have the ergonomic hole placement but kind of wish I didn't, I'm used to my Mcgee Pratten which is large holed and in-line. The Bb body causes some discomfort mostly because my hands are further away from my body, not the reach for the fingers, and even on this body I kind of wish I'd gone with in-line holes. Other people really like the ergonomic placement, though, so ideally you could try one both ways then make a decision. Don

[Steampacket]

I had the chance to play a Wilkes Bb keyless flute a few years ago in Sligo during a session and it was easy to sound and there was no difficulty as regards covering the finger holes and playing. I have small hands. This was at the beginning of my flute playing venture, so my flute playing skills were minimal at the time, but the length and hole spacing of the flute posed no problem. I think you'll adjust to any Bb flute the more you play, unless you have very short, fat, sausage like fingers in which case you may have to cut the webbing in order to increase the stretch

[chas]

I'm one who had a Bflat for awhile and gave it up due to hand problems. I come from a long line of folks with arthritis/tendinitis problems in the hands, and I've suffered sporadically since I was in my 20's.

For me the issue wasn't the hand stretch at all, but a couple of other things. I think the big one was that the arms need to be in a different position and the wrists turned differently. It's quite possible I could have overcome this in time, but the D flute is plenty difficult for me for the next many years. The other thing that gave me trouble was the weight and balance. If you're worried about hand problems you might want to consider an all-wood flute with thin walls.

[greenspiderweb]

Jon, and whomever may be interested-Grey Larsen has a page about Casey Burns low flutes on his website, that also lists some hole placement measurements for them, and in comparison to his D flute too:

http://www.greylarsen.com/store/lowflutes.php

And just recently Casey is now offering his Folk Flute in the lower keys too (C, Bb, A, and at a very nice price) in case you haven't heard:

http://caseyburnsflutes.com/ff_low.php

I hope to be able to get a low FF for myself sometime soon too-as this seems the perfect opportunity to do it now!

Good luck!
Barry

[paddler]

Thanks for all those responses! That has given me a lot to go on. I'm impressed by how generous you all are in taking the time to help on this and other issues. What a great group of people! - Jon

[McRick]

Thanks for all those responses! That has given me a lot to go on. I'm impressed by how generous you all are in taking the time to help on this and other issues. What a great group of people! - Jon

I feel the same way! Chiff and Fipple is a great place!

[Jon C.]

I would go for the Casey Burns flute, he let me try his when I visited him a couple of years ago, the reach like Gabriel said is no more then a standard D flute. I had the same size hands a Casey, medium sized, I can see why he goes for the tighter tone hole spacing.