Policy- remind me please

[Dale]

There are ways to conduct polls that wouldn't involve leaving comments. If interest in that approach builds, I'll describe in more detail.

I feel like I keep saying this over and over, but let me give it another shot. I think it is appropriate to post about bad merchandise or bad workmanship, bad customer service and so on. But I ask people to describe what they see and hear, describe the experiences they've had with makers, and so on. And I ask people to refrain from moving beyond this to making comments about the character of the maker. In this case, simply putting the facts out there, along with well supported opinions, will be enough to warn people. No need to add "and so therefore he's a crook" or a thief or a con artist. Focus on the products and the behavior and not the individual.

I think some people really don't want to be deprived of the right to call someone a crook. But, I think it's just a mistake to express a complaint that way. If someone writes on the board "John Smith is a crook" my response is, sort of, what's his beef? If someone writes, "John Smith took my deposit in January 2006, promised delivery by January 2007, still hasn't delivered, has refused to refund my money and has stopped returning my calls and emails"....that really MEANS something. That's useful.

[Elmek]

Hi Dale

This scenario is full of opportunities for abuse as pipes are vastly different to whistles. This is a minefield that could put you in Court as you are messing with peoples livelihoods

Note that there have been a couple of recent posts where the writer as given misleading information about makers

Back to the proposed poll

How many sets by the maker concerned has the person posting tried ?
Were the sets 'as new' direct from the maker ?
Were they set up as by the maker ?
Have they been 'adjusted' by the owner / another maker ?
Are the pipes being tried in an environment the same as the Makers ?
Are they fitted with the original makers own reeds ?

It would need some qualifying notes as well such as what steps have been taken to sort out the problems

Pipers are human too and subject to the same problems (health issues / family etc.) as everyone else.

Are you aware that there are makers out there that will happily say another makers pipes are wrong just to try to win an order. I know as it happened to me but luckily I had followed my makers advice and gone to the tutor suggested (he did not know my maker) and he verrified that my set was a good one that played easily and in tune. I then met another maker at pipers club who told me that although my set looked pretty I should take it back and order one of his.

John

[Uilliam]

Chas I don't know why ye thank David ?The moderators are saying quite the opposite to "None".
They are saying as long as it is 1st hand experience put in non emotional language and it is true then why not?
I think it is of no advantage whatsoever to have a poll of all pipers as ye suggest as probably 99% are doing nothing wrang and is wide open to abuse.
If'n ye know of sharp practice then name, I have said this afore ,if'n ye are telling the truth then whit are ye worrying aboot?Presumably afore ye fire awa then ye would have had dialogue with the individual concerned.
Secret Squirrel PM's are not very helpful in the bigger picture and again can be abused.At least if its in the open then it has to be accurate and is open to defence.
Strange methinks that ye all seem quite happy to slag aff the whole of the Pakistani Industry and possibly deny entire families of a pittance, because, on the face of whit they produce, it is deserved critique, but when it comes closer to hame then there is a deathly silence....think aboot it.
Slán Agat
Uilliam

[djimbo]

Ouch! Cutting sarcasm..

right, then! that settles it...Let's continue to slather consistently inept 'pipemakers' in private, and leave it to the sheer luck of the would-be-piper to ask around the thin global film of uilleann experts to find a skilled, reputable craftsman that can produce the goods.
thanks djm thumbs up

OK my opinion isn't yours, obviously.
(But yours is far more important )

I think to sum mine up in a few words -
If someone is willing to pay a kings ransom for a set of pipes and isn't willing to ask a few questions of other pipers or if none are available, a public board such as this. Then they deserve the fate you describe. i.e. the one suffered by practically everyone who started in piping when I did.

My feeling is that a project such as this would make this board descend to the level seen on other boards, cause lots of moderator work and generally cause ill feeling throughout the piping community. Some of this, as I pointed out, would be unfounded.
For example.
My own experiences involving a well-known pipe maker are very different from others with the same maker, so who's experiences are more valid?
If a maker is consistantly turning out rubbish, as it is suggested do our friends from the Indian sub-continent, then word does get around.
IMHO.

[Dale]

When you think about it, it's a very strange discussion. The web, magazines, and newspapers are filled with reviews, consumer response, and ratings of virtually all products. Restaurants, TV sets, books people have written, etc. etc. For the most part, of course, none of these include personal attacks or characterization of the people behind those products. But, we all know that the future of a business (and someone's livelihood) can be positively and negatively moved by public reviews and commentaries. Furthermore, increasingly, websites allow public comments on reviews. Anyone who is registered can post and are more or less free to say what they think.

I understand the complications involved with pipes. It's a highly specialized product with relatively few people making them, few consumers, and large amounts of money changing hands. I don't know how many sets of pipes a maker builds in a year, and so individual reviews are much more powerful than, say, a rottentomatoes.com review of a movie which would involve large numbers of consumers. As suggested, a poll might not be a useful approach because of the small n involved for each product.

So, we're probably left to insist that people provide their reactions to products using clear language, no personal attacks, and enough descriptive information to be useful to the reader.

[djm]

Another pitfall for these sorts of posts is that a pipemaker can be inconsistent, so that one piper will receive a very good set, a second a so-so set, and a third receive rubbish. This does happen, I'm afraid. It leads to conflicting reports of the pipemaker's quality, and a lot of insults and acrimony between the pipers posting their comments ensues.

Also, some pipemakers don't make the full set themselves, but contract out bits and pieces to others, so then you really need to investigate if the part/aspect of your pipes that you are upset with are really made by the pipemaker or by someone else.

I don't believe the poll options on these forums provide sufficient detail to give a reader enough of an understanding of the quality of the criticism, e.g. the seriousness of the complaint versus the complainer's experience and proficiency. I don't know of a way for people to report things in a way that would give a full picture to someone reviewing the criticism.

djm

[Uilliam]

If a maker is consistantly turning out rubbish, as it is suggested do our friends from the Indian sub-continent, then word does get around.
IMHO.

Granted but how does that word get around?With the sets above it is because of criticisms on the likes o this forum that there is a general awareness of whit to expect,not by covertly posting, but by public announcement.
Dale has it in one,why are ye so paranoid?If a maker can't or won't rectify/satisfy a genuine complaint then why on earth should they get some sort of masonic approval to carry on as normal?:boggle:
As he writes..So, we're probably left to insist that people provide their reactions to products using clear language, no personal attacks, and enough descriptive information to be useful to the reader.
Couldnae be much clearer than that.
David writes... I don't know of a way for people to report things in a way that would give a full picture to someone reviewing the criticism.
Well that hasnae stopped some very critical comments aboot the Mid Asian sets so I can't see why it can't apply to the rest of the world,anyways Dale above has given a way very clearly and simply.

The argument of early work or the odd bad set is a red herring.If it is the case that so and so's early work is poorer than his latest then that should be made clear to the seller.This would I think in most cases apply to second or more hand sets not those straight frae the workshop.If it is coming frae there then ye would expect it to be of a standard that the maker is happy with and presumably the customer.If'n not then why??
Simple really.
Anyways enough o this blather I can honestly say that I have been happy wi the few makers that I have dealt wi.Without exception.I therefore will not be posting anything.
Slán Agat
Uilliam

[Cayden]

Compare this to the moderators staunchly ignoring the carry on in this thread.

A good indication of what you can get away with here?

[Uilliam]

Thanks Peter...there ye go .Not only possible but it seems to get the message across in a fairly straightforward way,methinks.
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam

[simonknight]

Maybe a poll is too simplistic. My experience of one maker - a full set I once owned and playing a number of other peoples - is mainly but not wholly positive, especially from the point of view of a beginner.

From the point of view of a beginner, he reeds pretty hard. I really struggled with the chanter not knowing any better. Clearly something that can be addressed if the new player is aware of the issue.

Construction is solid. Earlier efforts were a bit crude, but newer stuff is much better. I really didn't like his bellows.

The chanters play in tune but I (and I know of another) who have experienced issues with the regulators.

Overall, I think most people would be happy with his work after some personal adjustments. He's not cheap but isn't the most expensive. Maybe not for someone wanting a top set, but very good value. Importantly, I found his service and business practices without question.


Is this fair? Is it helpful (if you knew who it is)?

[Joseph E. Smith]

Compare this to the moderators staunchly ignoring the carry on in this thread.

A good indication of what you can get away with here?

Hundreds and hundreds upon hundreds of posts turn up on this board daily, it is not always possible to read through them all even with a handful of mods. Staunchly and ignoringdon't enter into it.

[CHasR]

It's a symbiotic relationship: pipers need pipemakers & vise-versa, but imo it's heavily weighted in favor of the pipemaker. Some sort of check-and-balance is lacking.

I've never bought a big-ticket item (cars, cooker, gizmo) without reading a review first. This option, except for 'celebrity-endorsements' ( so+so play's abc's pipes, so they're ok) is largely unavailable to alternate-pipers.

They set the price (whatever market will bear)
They control supply, delivery only on completion if fully paid up,
you can try an existing set, but it may not behave like the one you'll get.

I thought about what other kinds of transactions in the world are analagous to the one between pipers + pipemakers.

Used car dealer: no, there's far more info about the product available, and usually you can get it checked out by a trusted mechanic during the 'test drive'.
Antique dealer: well, you can try the product up front, even if it's a forgey/inauthentic.
Drug dealer: Yep! that's about the closest. not that I would actually know...

And as for hurting the livelihood of inept craftsmen, I say: so what?
How is this a bad thing?

How many of us have changed lines of work in our time? There's no counting how many kids graduate with a head full of steam for, say, teaching, and end up as an accountant. If someone cant produce an acceptable musical instrument, go turn furniture. paste wallpaper. Sell cheese.

'I'm sorry ladies + gents, I cant play that tune you're paying me to play because my bagpipe was made whilst my pipemaker was undergoing a time of great personal stress' just dosent cut it.

[djm]

I think, CHasR, you're still comparing apples to oranges. I look at pipemakers more as artisans than as manufacturers. There is not so much engineering involved with pipemaking to anything else you are using for comparison, and there is little in consistency in the base materials to begin with, so that each instrument is crafted uniquely to meet the individual piece of material (wood, cane, etc.). Nor is there anything like sufficient supply of these beasts in any one place to ever be able to go "shopping", as you suggest. Most pipers buy what they can afford as it becomes available and make do.

Also, there is not the opportunity, I think, for a pipemaker to get good through repetition or quantity. A pipemaker might put out two or three full sets in a year. The rest of the time is spent putzing about with chanter and reed design, repairing one's own previous work, repairing or attempting to reed someone else's work, etc. Time passes quickly when you're frigging around.

One thing that would aid many makers or would-be makers greatly is to refrain from selling your miserable first attempts to unsuspecting newbies. I suspect this is the basis for a lot of the nastier experiences pipers go through. Face the fact that you're never going to get rich building pipes and resist the urge to try to make a buck off every piece of firewood you manage to hack together.

djm

[CHasR]

I think, CHasR, you're still comparing apples to oranges. I look at pipemakers more as artisans than as manufacturers. There is not so much engineering involved with pipemaking to anything else you are using for comparison, and there is little in consistency in the base materials to begin with, so that each instrument is crafted uniquely to meet the individual piece of material (wood, cane, etc.). Nor is there anything like sufficient supply of these beasts in any one place to ever be able to go "shopping", as you suggest. Most pipers buy what they can afford as it becomes available and make do.

Also, there is not the opportunity, I think, for a pipemaker to get good through repetition or quantity. A pipemaker might put out two or three full sets in a year. The rest of the time is spent putzing about with chanter and reed design, repairing one's own previous work, repairing or attempting to reed someone else's work, etc. Time passes quickly when you're frigging around.

One thing that would aid many makers or would-be makers greatly is to refrain from selling your miserable first attempts to unsuspecting newbies. I suspect this is the basis for a lot of the nastier experiences pipers go through. Face the fact that you're never going to get rich building pipes and resist the urge to try to make a buck off every piece of firewood you manage to hack together.

djm

fair & true enough, but I never suggested that this isnt a time-consuming art that would be better done on an assembly line.
nevertheless, a product IS a product.
Public accountability to one's clientele is a reasonable quality control measure: I fully expect it from my customers. but some pipemakers seem to be going 'scot-free', not improving on their product/services, and still taking profit.
Let's have their foibles out in the open, is what I'm saying.

[Cayden]

Hundreds and hundreds upon hundreds of posts turn up on this board daily, it is not always possible to read through them all even with a handful of mods. Staunchly and ignoringdon't enter into it.

Well, I sent PM to our head moderator and policy maker to draw attention to the thread and the ill considered remarks made in it as soon as they occurred. I left it sitting in my outbox for five days before removing it when the thread had moved down the page a good bit. The non response, or failure to open the message at all if you like, felt close enough to ignoring for me to describe it as such Joseph.


And I know, busy, busy, better things to do than read all posts, messages and all that.