Old-time music on Irish flute? Is it done?

sbfluter · Post by **sbfluter** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:01 am

It turns out there is more opportunity to play music in my town if you play old-time, so I've been attending a lot of jams with my mandolin. I have never seen anyone play a wind instrument at a jam, only strings. Well, there was one guy with a sopranino recorder who played random squeaky notes and giggled half the time, but I don't think he counts. So I'm wondering, what's the protocol here for it? Are there any good examples of flutes and old-time music? Is it generally frowned upon or maybe it just doesn't really work?

Jay · Post by **Jay** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:36 am

I occasionally play with an open contra dance band here. They play a mix of old-time and traditional irish and scottish tunes. They really appreciate what the flute adds tonally, since nearly everyone else plays a stringed instrument.

Not sure if there is any history of flute in old-time, but my experience would suggest it's not frowned upon.

Jay

sbfluter · Post by **sbfluter** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:56 am

Hey, that's cool.

Does Irish ornamentation work in old-time? I'm not sure if it does. I don't know many old-time tunes as it is, and those I do know, the Irish ornamentation seems awkward. I don't really hear any Irish-style ornamentation on the fiddles, either, and from what I can see looking at them (I don't play the fiddle myself) the bowing looks different. That's why I was wondering if there are any good examples on youtube or somewhere with flutes.

And would you ever start a tune on your flute? If so, how do you play the "potatoes"?

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:08 pm

I do this a lot. There's an Old Time jam here in St. Louis.
I play whistle and flute. The nature of Old Time is that people
picked up the instruments they had about--so there
isn't much orthodoxy (bluegrass can sometimes be
more fussy).

The chops one gets playing ITM transfer nicely.
The music is simpler but not terribly different.
Ornament as sounds best to you--I find
ornamentation works OK.

I'm having more success with whistle, but I'm
plugging away at flute too. I really think woodenflute
begs to be used in other venues.

Check out 'Train on the island' at the bottom
of these downloads. It's whistle but you get the idea.

http://efolkmusic.org/ArtMusic/ViewDownload.aspx?AID=93#

crookedtune · Post by **crookedtune** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:15 pm

I played oldtime banjo, mandolin and fiddle for years before exploring ITM. My experience is that the oldtime jam crowd isn't very tolerant of flute or whistle, as it's not generally part of the tradition. I respect that, just as respect that you don't bring a 5-string banjo to an Irish session.

The tunes work great, though, and I play a lot of them (at home). Most oldtime tunes are played in D, G and A, and have few "accidental" notes. So they're naturals for flute and whistle. To me, the ITM ornamentation seems out of place in most of the music, so I tend to play it unadorned. Lots of fun!

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:24 pm

I guess you have to see how your group is, Diane.
I'm very welcome in mine. I've played in several others
and had no trouble. Also seem to be welcome
in Blue grass jams, but there the Bill Monroe
mix of instruments sometimes matters.

By the way I sometimes play A whistle or a fife
when these folks are doing D tunes.

Jay · Post by **Jay** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:27 pm

If it's an irish tune I play it like an irish tune, ornaments and all. But I must confess the music scene in Flagstaff is fairly small. They tolerate me just fine at the old-time jams, and I don't mind so much when they bring their upright base and 5-string banjos to our ITM session (as long as they can keep up).

Also, I think there might be more tolerance among the contra band types. I know of several contra dance bands across the states that use whistles and flutes, among other non-old-time instruments (crowfoot music comes to mind, out of the northeast).

Jay

tin tin · Post by **tin tin** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:54 pm

Old time has a different pulse than Irish music, but flute and whistle can sound great. This band http://www.myspace.com/crowfootmusic might give you some ideas.

sbfluter · Post by **sbfluter** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:00 pm

I love Mark Roberts. I think I ordered the album from that site. I like his laid-back style.

I guess I'll ask some people in the group what they think about playing my flute. I don't know many of the tunes yet and so I feel self-conscious about doing it. Everybody would be listening if I brought it out now. But once I know more tunes and can play them, I think I might rather play my flute sometimes than only the mandolin. I like both.

I started attending the group with an Applachian dulcimer. Trouble with the dulcimer is I could not hear myself so it was too hard learning the tunes. (I learn as I go and it works well.) The night I finally brought my mandolin they suddenly seemed to welcome me like a real member, even teasing me about the mother of toilet seat trim on my instrument. They don't seem to mind one bit I can't play the darn thing.

MTGuru · Post by **MTGuru** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:05 pm

Don't forget the previous threads on this, Diane, including a few involving you. Hey, it happens to me, too.

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=60259
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=59830
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=54342

And a few clips:

Nicholas Williams (courtesy of Tintin)
http://www.nicholaswilliams.ca/Music/Th ... 20Fire.mp3

Thomaston (on whistle)
http://www.box.net/shared/rgecjguo0w

MTGuru & Mark O'Connor (on whistle)
http://www.box.net/shared/ctm1umvkap

deisman · Post by **deisman** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:30 pm

Cool Diane - keep us posted how you make out...

Deisman

dontf · Post by **dontf** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:40 pm

chris norman's cd "the man with the wooden flute" has several old time tunes done nicely. i think they're fun, mixing it up is always a good thing. i think i use less ornaments but there's certainly places where they fit. don

s1m0n · Post by **s1m0n** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:09 pm

In the form of 'quills'--a pan-pipe made of cane--OT music and the blues have a venerable wind instrument tradition, albeit perhaps localized to the southern atlantic states. I believe the same region also had a fife-band tradition that would qualify as OT.

Check out the Alan Lomax Southern Journey series; this music was field-recorded but I don't believe it's on any commercial recordings were made in the 78 era.

Jay · Post by **Jay** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:20 am

There's a band out of North Carolina, the Carolina Chocolate Drops. Their style of Piedmont Bluegrass includes the quills, jug, harmonicas, and a kazoo (along with fiddles, banjos, and steel guitar). I just saw them at a music festival, where they explained how many of these unconventional instruments (modern opinion) were commonly used as bluegrass was getting under way, which apparently was in the Carolina piedmont rather than the southern appalacians. They have a few sound clips on their website.

Jay

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:34 am

http://www.carolinachocolatedrops.com/