Running out of breath quickly

[Liney Bear]

I just ran outside for a break at work because I wanted to see how long I could play my 2 piece Clare whistle without needing to take a breath, and I can match LB's 16 bars on one breath but it was not comfortable. So, I tried playing for long phrasing and found I could do 12 to 14 bars comfortably, but I didn't like the sound as much as when I take breaths a little more frequently because it's not always about length but how you use it...and the space a breath creates is highly musical if done right...
I think the key point in my post was worry less about how long you can go between breaths, worry not about being short of wind, and learn how to breath properly and you'll be OK even if you're breathing every 2 bars. I'd like to claim that I'm the author of that tidbit, but my teacher had to beat me about the ears to get this point to sink in...and I've been a much better player since I truly took this lesson to heart.

Eric

I should have been more clear earlier - sorry. I'm not saying that I typically play 16 bars at a time with no breathing on the whistle, only that I can do so without much strain, but there's absolutely no way in heck I could play at that length on the flute, comfortable or not. It's just not gonna happen. It may also be that I'm an average flute player but a better whistle player, lungwise-ily speaking.

To me, your advice re: "worry less about how long you can go between breaths, worry not about being short of wind" is spot on. Just because some people can doesn't mean that everyone else should.

[sbfluter]

It probably varies per person.

Before I went on my long distance hike in high altitude I couldn't play my flute for as long as my whistle without a breath. Now that I'm back I can. I think the increased fitness and training at altitude helped.

While I was at altitude I could barely breathe enough when I played my whistle. It was worse than the flute.

None of that really matters, though. In general, it doesn't take as much air to play a flute as most beginners think it does, and the air requirement really is closer to a high D whistle than to a low D whistle. And yes, the breathing is a way to enhance or vary the tune, so make it work for you instead of against! I found June McCormack's Fliuit book, the CD that comes with it, to be a great way to see how breathing can enhance/vary a tune.

[deisman]

BlackFire,

Hi & welcome to the C&F. forget about what these other guys can do - they have a head start. Just hang in there and it will get better. I've been playing my Tipple for about 14 months & while I'm still working on improving my breathing it's gotten scads better. Just try & practice daily and don't worry about it - have fun. I used to practically pass out but I'm not in very good shape.

The key is daily practice otherwise you backslide - here is my favorite quote on the subject: "You only have to practice on the days when you eat"

Best,

Deisman

[Jayhawk]

Liney Bear - you were perfectly clear, and I never thought you routinely played 16 bars on whistle without a breath (your playing is much too musical for that!). I just wanted to see if I could do it as well, but for me it definitely wasn't comfortable. The A part wasn't too bad, but doing it on the B part made me want to explode. Now breathing every 12-14 bars I could do comfortably through a set of Boys on the Town, Mist Covered Mountains and the Cat's Meow.

I think 16 bars on a whistle, comfortably, is impressive.

So Jim, sbfluter, and Segv - how many bars on the whistle can you go between breaths through a set comfortably? 16, 14, 12 or 8?

Maybe LB is an exceptional whistle player, or maybe those who say the breath requirements are the same play whistle for shorter spans than others do.

Eric

[Akiba]

duplicate

[Akiba]

triplicate

[Akiba]

My experience is, similar to Jay and LB, that flute requires the greatest amount of air of ANY INSTRUMENT of its size. Just the physics justifies this in my mind--the sound produced by the flute occurs due to the vibration of air, i.e. the flute is a pure air instrument. Almost all other instruments have something else providing the vibration, e.g. a string, lips buzzing, a reed. Whistles are close to flutes due the pure air nature. Low whistles do require a good deal of air similar to the concert D flute; but the high whistle--no way it requires the same air as the flute. I have a Clark original that has a large fipple requiring a lot of air, and I'll play 7-8 bar phrases on it while on flute I usually play 4-5 bar phrases.

Comparable air requirements on other instruments would be trombone, tuba, baritone saxaphone. I played bari sax from age 12 to 14 which I think helped develop my lung capacity (had many head rushes and light-headed experiences in the process). When I picked up the flute at 15, the air requirement was no big deal.

I also think that the air requirement increases based on the type of tone and volume one wants to produce. If you want a fat loud projecting tone, it requires a good deal of focused air. Playing more quietly with a smaller though solid, more whistful tone requires considerably less air.

Thus, lung capacity and breath control are critical to flute playing. Skip Healy had some pretty radical breathing exercises on one of his web pages (I seem to remember a belt on the rib cage). There are many out there. Find breathing exercises you can do, and keep playing. Glad you posted this thread because I need to always think about breathing big before starting and still need to work on my lung capacity and breath control as well.

Best of luck,

Jason

[treeshark]

I found that it takes me a bit more than twice the amount of air playing the D flute as a standard Generation d whistle.
I was pleasantly surprised to find I could easily manage 24 bars of a reel on the whistle, but only 11 on the flute. I'm not sure bars is a good measure though a better one might be how long you can hold a single bottom G for.
I think a factor that makes a big difference on the flute is fine control of the air you are using, I had a few lessons from a classical teacher and she taught me to try to learn to use the amount of air appropriate to the length of phrase you want to play.
In practice you choose a tune you know really well. Then play 4 bars using up your whole lung capacity, then 5 bars, six etc. each time you should aim to end up with your air tank dry.
The aim is to have real awareness of how much air you are getting through. I still do the exercise from time to time and alas mostly miss my target but I think it helps.
Best not to get too hung upon it though just playing the chunes is the important thing.

Oops the 24 bars was due to me being unable to count slim that down to a more 'umble 18...

[gorjuswrex]

Try breathing exercises when you are not playing. Practice to see how long you can hold your breath. This will inrease with practice.

Once you develop you will find you don't need loads of breath.

A important thing is to learn to take a deepish breath, that still feels competely comfortable to hold, and just take small top up breaths regularly. You should never reach a point were you need to take a big gulp. Again a slight generalisation as some styles would vary here but even if you go for those styles at this stage learning the regular top up technique is recommended. The idea is to keep the lungs comfortably full and use small top ups at suitable places.

Try lilting the tune. Notice how you take breaths. Do it naturally and then try to use the same general idea in playing.

Kevin

[gorjuswrex]

Just read treesharks post. It looks like a contradition. When he talks abuot running out of air at the end of the bars I think he means for this practice exercise. Not the way you would play. Maybe he can confirm that.

Kevin

[treeshark]

Just read treesharks post. It looks like a contradition. When he talks abuot running out of air at the end of the bars I think he means for this practice exercise. Not the way you would play. Maybe he can confirm that.

Kevin

Yes for practice only, though I believe classical players leak excess air through the nose so that stale air is refreshed, sometimes when you feel like you need a breath it's not that your lungs are empty but that oxygen starvation and unconsciousness are approaching rapidly...

[sbfluter]

I can play one half of a reel on the whistle. At the end I'm out of breath. I can play about 3/4 of a half of a reel on the flute before I'm out of breath. By half a reel I mean if a reel is AABB, half is AA. On a low whistle I can play just a little over one of the A or B parts.

It's very hard to do this, though, because breathing seems to be how to make the rhythm happen in some places. It's a lot more likely that on either instrument I might attempt just an entire A or B part in one breath, and I can do it on both instruments, but still, I like to breathe more often for rhythm. Very often I breathe even when I don't need to.

I can play my whistle while I walk as long as it's not too hilly. It works mostly only if I play hornpipes because other tunes are too hard to play with the rhythm of walking getting in the way. I would practice tunes in my head during my big hike. The trouble is, I could never play the reels fast enough in my head because the rhythm of my footsteps would slow down whatever was going through my head.

[gorjuswrex]

Yes for practice only, though I believe classical players leak excess air through the nose so that stale air is refreshed, ...

Good point. I know I used to be aware of doing this before. Only on whistle I think and maybe only on slow airs. I would time the leakage so that on a 'main breath' place I would be able to refresh most air in the tank. To see if I do this on flute I just played a reel and a slow air. I don't think I leak on flute. For slow airs there seems to be enough time to take on big enough 'refresh breath' in places, eg end of phrases. Same seems to apply to dance tunes. These are comfortable fast breaths not gulps. The smaller top ups I take in the main body of the tune.

I think I still do this leaking on whistle. Don't know why there is a difference. Might be that I use more air on the flute so I don't need to leak.

Kevin

[gorjuswrex]

I can play my whistle while I walk as long as it's not too hilly. It works mostly only if I play hornpipes because other tunes are too hard to play with the rhythm of walking getting in the way. I would practice tunes in my head during my big hike. The trouble is, I could never play the reels fast enough in my head because the rhythm of my footsteps would slow down whatever was going through my head.

How about cycling no handed?

Kevin

[Guinness]

And if you're new to wind instruments in general, you've got to develop your lung capacity....

Watch scrawny, hunched over guy do it, especially at the one minute mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHcDY76a_eY

The "I can take X bars on a whistle but only Y bars on a flute before taking a breath" is really quite misleading. Do people actually fill their lungs to full capacity between phrases? The fact that scrawny, hunched over guy can belt out long phrases on a partially filled set of lungs proves that capacity is not a major determinant in playing the flute.