While I don't think finger exercises are particularly necessary - if you are able to practice for sufficiently long periods of time, your fingers will be 'strong' enough to be both agile, flexible and controlled - I have to cross over to the side of strong hands, having never heard of muscle-bound fingers. Strong fingers does not mean limited movement, nor it does not exclude gentle use or relaxed use. That you may have bone-crushing strength in your hand doesn't mean it impedes playing abilities. On the contrary, unless you're pumping steroids into your fingers, strong hands means better control. I just think playing regularly solves your necessary finger strength issues - time spent crushing paper and pushing mechanical springs is better spent playing slowly and carefully, until your fingers no longer fatigue.
Again, overall physical health is more critical - back posture, fore-arm strength and tendon flexibility (stretching), lung efficiency (not necessarily capacity, although this doesn't hurt), all supplement what fingers are doing when playing flute. If you've been playing a long time, and your fingers still feel slow and sluggish, go for a more comfortable flute for your hands. Then play a lot.
training finger strength?
Right,, the muscles that drive the fingers, except for the thumb,
are in the forearm. They operate through tendons.
Strengthening those muscles in no
way constricts the fingers.
My grip is reasonably strong because I spend time in
a gym lifting weights and otherwise working out.
Holding and lifting weights is going to develop grip.
While I doubt that much finger
strength is needed to play flute, I do think that
the muscular strength in back, arms, belly, etc. tends
to help playing and holding the instrument and reduces
risk of injury--and
not just playing flute. As one gets older, it's
increasingly more dangerous to be weak;
things are a lot more apt to break under
sudden stress.
Also, as was mentioned above, this does make for
a happier life, especially as one gets older.
Of course a fair amount of aerobic
exercise is part of that. Endorphins are the last
legal high.
By the way, lifting weights doesn't necessarily mean
big heavy weights. Lots can be done with relatively
light weights.
Anybody who is concerned about finger strength
might do well to review their entire exercise
situation. A fair amount of intelligent exercise,
none of it directed at grip, will develop finger
strength and have considerable general
benefit.
Being a musician is an athletic activity, especially
a wind instrument--much like singing. It helps
to be strong.
are in the forearm. They operate through tendons.
Strengthening those muscles in no
way constricts the fingers.
My grip is reasonably strong because I spend time in
a gym lifting weights and otherwise working out.
Holding and lifting weights is going to develop grip.
While I doubt that much finger
strength is needed to play flute, I do think that
the muscular strength in back, arms, belly, etc. tends
to help playing and holding the instrument and reduces
risk of injury--and
not just playing flute. As one gets older, it's
increasingly more dangerous to be weak;
things are a lot more apt to break under
sudden stress.
Also, as was mentioned above, this does make for
a happier life, especially as one gets older.
Of course a fair amount of aerobic
exercise is part of that. Endorphins are the last
legal high.
By the way, lifting weights doesn't necessarily mean
big heavy weights. Lots can be done with relatively
light weights.
Anybody who is concerned about finger strength
might do well to review their entire exercise
situation. A fair amount of intelligent exercise,
none of it directed at grip, will develop finger
strength and have considerable general
benefit.
Being a musician is an athletic activity, especially
a wind instrument--much like singing. It helps
to be strong.
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David Levine
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Lifting light weights is better than not lifting weights at all. But lifting light weights won't take you very far. If you think so you're fooling yourself.
The proper term for this activity is "resistance training". The only way to build dense muscle is to lift heavy weights. In bodybuilding the object is to build muscle. The only way to do so is by progressively overloading muscles. A muscle will adapt and grow only when it needs to, by responding to demand. By overloading the muscle you tear some of the muscle fiber, which in turn heals and responds to the damage by growing larger and denser.
This isn't precisely scientific but you get the idea. Lifting light weights won't get you where you want to go. Yoga practice would probably be more fruitful than lifting light weights. You need heavy and you need to do squats, not sit in that silly squat sled.
You can lift a one pound weight 100 times or lift a fifty pound weight twice. Which do you suppose will be of more benefit?
Loren and Rich, both also certified in the field, might have something to say about this. Resistance training certainly helps when you've been playing in a session, or for a dance, for three hours.
The proper term for this activity is "resistance training". The only way to build dense muscle is to lift heavy weights. In bodybuilding the object is to build muscle. The only way to do so is by progressively overloading muscles. A muscle will adapt and grow only when it needs to, by responding to demand. By overloading the muscle you tear some of the muscle fiber, which in turn heals and responds to the damage by growing larger and denser.
This isn't precisely scientific but you get the idea. Lifting light weights won't get you where you want to go. Yoga practice would probably be more fruitful than lifting light weights. You need heavy and you need to do squats, not sit in that silly squat sled.
You can lift a one pound weight 100 times or lift a fifty pound weight twice. Which do you suppose will be of more benefit?
Loren and Rich, both also certified in the field, might have something to say about this. Resistance training certainly helps when you've been playing in a session, or for a dance, for three hours.
Time will tell who has fell and who's been left behind,
Most likely you'll go your way, I'll go mine.
Most likely you'll go your way, I'll go mine.
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David Levine
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John, I'm not sure about this. Peter Horan is a case in point. His fingers are tobacco brown. Plenty of flute-players with limited lung capacity are great players. Seamus Egan once said something to the effect that playing the flute should take no more wind than talking. I've never been breathless from playing the flute except when I'm not breathing properly.
Time will tell who has fell and who's been left behind,
Most likely you'll go your way, I'll go mine.
Most likely you'll go your way, I'll go mine.
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johnkerr
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Well, David, you're a lot closer to Peter Horan than I am, so would you mind finding out what his resistance training regimen is and reporting back? And I suppose that next you'll be advocating that we all take up chain smoking to improve our playing?
But seriously, if you look at what I quoted from your post you'll notice that you mentioned playing for three hours. Playing that long, especially for a dance, requires stamina. Aerobic training builds stamina. Lifting a fifty pound weight twice doesn't, at least in my experience. Wouldn't you agree with that?
Playing the flute for three hours should require no more wind than talking for three hours. A bit of aerobic traing will help anyone do both of those things with even less wind.
But seriously, if you look at what I quoted from your post you'll notice that you mentioned playing for three hours. Playing that long, especially for a dance, requires stamina. Aerobic training builds stamina. Lifting a fifty pound weight twice doesn't, at least in my experience. Wouldn't you agree with that?
Playing the flute for three hours should require no more wind than talking for three hours. A bit of aerobic traing will help anyone do both of those things with even less wind.
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David Levine
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Wait a minute here. I never juxtaposed lifting a fifty pound weight twice with aerobic training. What I said was that lifting a fifty pound weight twice would be better than lifting a one pound weight 100 times. I have enough of my own words in my mouth as it is.
Of course I never said smoking would improve your playing. Only that some smokers -- with presumably very limited lung capacity -- are good players. And I don't doubt they'd be even better players if they didn't smoke.
I agree that aerobic training will build stamina. Everything counts. Just that some things count for more than others. I don't know how much aerobic training it would take to gain as much upper body strength you would gain from training seriously with weights three times a week for 45" a session.
Of course I never said smoking would improve your playing. Only that some smokers -- with presumably very limited lung capacity -- are good players. And I don't doubt they'd be even better players if they didn't smoke.
I agree that aerobic training will build stamina. Everything counts. Just that some things count for more than others. I don't know how much aerobic training it would take to gain as much upper body strength you would gain from training seriously with weights three times a week for 45" a session.
Time will tell who has fell and who's been left behind,
Most likely you'll go your way, I'll go mine.
Most likely you'll go your way, I'll go mine.
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Ceili_whistle_man
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David Levine said:
Choir practice would probably be more fruitful than slow swimming, there, how's that for an equally obtuse statement?
You do not need strength per se to play the flute, and especially so where the fingers are concerned. Weight training, heavy or light, will increase your overall fitness and body posture which in turn will greatly benefit the comfort and ease with which you are able to hold and play your flute. I think that could also apply for most other instruments.
Muscle memory is the best friend of free and easy playing, Atrophy is the biggest enemy. If you don't play often enough, it sets in, so keep it at bay with practice, practice, practice.
On a more serious note, here is a picture of last years All Ireland Champion (flute, over 35 category) So that’s where he gets his finger dexterity from, ahhh....sorry Mr Levine, I take it all back.
I’m off to the gym!!!!
AgreedLifting light weights is better than not lifting weights at all
Won’t take who very far, and in what sense? How do you quantify your assertion?But lifting light weights won't take you very far
Really? So I was fooling myself for all those years that I played soccer and had a regime of resistance training to build stamina?If you think so you're fooling yourself.
So just where is it we want to go? 'Yoga more fruitful', c'mon there fella, maybe in a relaxational sense, I just don't get how you can compare weight lifting and Yoga.Lifting light weights won't get you where you want to go. Yoga practice would probably be more fruitful than lifting light weights. You need heavy and you need to do squats, not sit in that silly squat sled.
Choir practice would probably be more fruitful than slow swimming, there, how's that for an equally obtuse statement?
My, you seem to have a bit of ‘roid rage going on there, so you think everyone needs to have massive weights to get any benefit out of weight training?You need heavy and you need to do squats, not sit in that silly squat sled.
It depends on your end goal. It’s like comparing apples and pears.You can lift a one pound weight 100 times or lift a fifty pound weight twice. Which do you suppose will be of more benefit?
You do not need strength per se to play the flute, and especially so where the fingers are concerned. Weight training, heavy or light, will increase your overall fitness and body posture which in turn will greatly benefit the comfort and ease with which you are able to hold and play your flute. I think that could also apply for most other instruments.
Muscle memory is the best friend of free and easy playing, Atrophy is the biggest enemy. If you don't play often enough, it sets in, so keep it at bay with practice, practice, practice.
On a more serious note, here is a picture of last years All Ireland Champion (flute, over 35 category) So that’s where he gets his finger dexterity from, ahhh....sorry Mr Levine, I take it all back.
I’m off to the gym!!!!
Whale Oil Beef Hooked!
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Ceili_whistle_man
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johnkerr
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Okay, David. You've pushed my back to the wall now. I've spent a lifetime doing aerobic training (running, swimming, now mainly walking) with not much strength training in the form of weightlifting. You're apparently a disciple of Ah-nold the Governator (physically, not politically). So I'm throwing it down. Marathon session, or marathon dance gig, your call. First to lay the flute down buys the pints. Your place or mine?
(And don't go bringing any age difference into it, or I'll pull in Peter Horan and he'll whip the both of us.)
(And don't go bringing any age difference into it, or I'll pull in Peter Horan and he'll whip the both of us.)
I agree, but I was writing with Berti 66 in mind. As you say,David Levine wrote:Lifting light weights is better than not lifting weights at all. But lifting light weights won't take you very far. If you think so you're fooling yourself.
The proper term for this activity is "resistance training". The only way to build dense muscle is to lift heavy weights. In bodybuilding the object is to build muscle. The only way to do so is by progressively overloading muscles. A muscle will adapt and grow only when it needs to, by responding to demand. By overloading the muscle you tear some of the muscle fiber, which in turn heals and responds to the damage by growing larger and denser.
This isn't precisely scientific but you get the idea. Lifting light weights won't get you where you want to go. Yoga practice would probably be more fruitful than lifting light weights. You need heavy and you need to do squats, not sit in that silly squat sled.
You can lift a one pound weight 100 times or lift a fifty pound weight twice. Which do you suppose will be of more benefit?
Loren and Rich, both also certified in the field, might have something to say about this. Resistance training certainly helps when you've been playing in a session, or for a dance, for three hours.
lifting is better than not (even ten or 15 pound weights). There
are a number of people (some of them women), who would
benefit considerably who associate weight lifting
with, you know, Arnie, lifting great heavy weights, which
stops them from starting.
I do think plenty of people can derive signficant benefit
from lighter weights, but of course I agree--that's now how
to build dense muscle mass.
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Berti66
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completely agree about the lifting weights (doing bodybuilding a few months now myself)..........
it is not about the heaviest weights, but about the fact that you DO lift weights BUT TO YOUR LIMITS.
meaning, you should try and push your limits and get the weight that you can barely do a few repeats with, them build up the weight ........works!
berti
it is not about the heaviest weights, but about the fact that you DO lift weights BUT TO YOUR LIMITS.
meaning, you should try and push your limits and get the weight that you can barely do a few repeats with, them build up the weight ........works!
berti
Technically, you're right, as the finger muscles really are in the forearm, and are connected to the fingers by tendons, via the wrist. However, for the sake of brevity, I simply referred to those muscles which ultimately give strength to the fingers.I.D.10-t wrote:This is an interesting comment. Usually when I think of muscle bound I think of the person that cannot put their arms down because the bulk of their muscles prevent full range of movement. The muscles of the hand (with the exception of the side to side movements)tend to be in the forearm and are connected with tendons. The fingers are completely remotely controlled.Cork wrote:In short, muscle-bound fingers are not fast, flexible fingers.
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David Levine
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Dear John, I will take that challenge. We will walk from Derreen to Doolin, tooting all the way. The first person to stop playing his flute buys the first round.
When PO was here a few years ago Noel Sweeney came to pick up his new flute. There was another flute-player present at the time. We did a round-robin session. We played each tune through twice. The person on the left had to start the next tune. The first person not to start the next tune lost. After four and a half hours Roz pleaded with us to leave the house so she could have some peace and get dinner on the table. (The other player was Peter Horan. He went into the next room and played until breakfast.)
Dear Ceili..., 'Roid rage is too precious and limited a commodity to let loose on this forum. Re: the juxtaposition issue: "I never juxtaposed lifting a fifty pound weight twice with aerobic training." Stet. Sotto voce: I did juxtapose 1 lb. x 100 v. 50 lb x 2. But that wasn't the point. Excuse me... what was the point?
Isn't this: "I played soccer and had a regime of resistance training to build stamina." my point, precisely?
I assume you've little experience with Yoga. There are many different kinds of Yoga practice. I won't burden you further except to quote:
http://yoga.iloveindia.com/yoga-benefits/strength.html
Most of us seem to agree that strength (and resistance training) is a good thing. That everything counts and something is better than nothing at all. That strength and agility are complimentary rather than exclusive. That finger strength, as far as flute-playing is concerned, is not the same as grip strength. The latter is a weight-room concept. And that Peter Horan can whip any of us.
When PO was here a few years ago Noel Sweeney came to pick up his new flute. There was another flute-player present at the time. We did a round-robin session. We played each tune through twice. The person on the left had to start the next tune. The first person not to start the next tune lost. After four and a half hours Roz pleaded with us to leave the house so she could have some peace and get dinner on the table. (The other player was Peter Horan. He went into the next room and played until breakfast.)
Dear Ceili..., 'Roid rage is too precious and limited a commodity to let loose on this forum. Re: the juxtaposition issue: "I never juxtaposed lifting a fifty pound weight twice with aerobic training." Stet. Sotto voce: I did juxtapose 1 lb. x 100 v. 50 lb x 2. But that wasn't the point. Excuse me... what was the point?
Isn't this: "I played soccer and had a regime of resistance training to build stamina." my point, precisely?
I assume you've little experience with Yoga. There are many different kinds of Yoga practice. I won't burden you further except to quote:
... the stronger you are the better you feel. When practiced regularly, Yoga makes you strong and light. It is unbelievable that one feels twice as strong as before but at the same time he/she feels half his/her earlier body weight. With increase in strength the whole tendency of your body changes. Despite the increase in your body weight [because of muscle growth] you find the handling of your body more easy and comfortable.
http://yoga.iloveindia.com/yoga-benefits/strength.html
Most of us seem to agree that strength (and resistance training) is a good thing. That everything counts and something is better than nothing at all. That strength and agility are complimentary rather than exclusive. That finger strength, as far as flute-playing is concerned, is not the same as grip strength. The latter is a weight-room concept. And that Peter Horan can whip any of us.
Time will tell who has fell and who's been left behind,
Most likely you'll go your way, I'll go mine.
Most likely you'll go your way, I'll go mine.
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Ceili_whistle_man
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Thanks David for making your point a bit clearer on light/heavy weights and their benefits.
On the other hand, the idea that contemplating the navel and the introspective soul searching and purging of ones troubles that this pastime will bring would more than likely make you mentally stronger is probably true. Would it make one better equipped to play the flute? That would be subjective.
I know there are, I had a friend in Belfast who drove me nuts extolling the virtues of yoga, personally it did nothing for me. The idea that sitting contemplating the navel can somehow make you physically stronger is absurd. And yes I know there are more robust forms of Yoga, but they can be compared (as far as strength building is concerned) to Tai Chi.I assume you've little experience with Yoga. There are many different kinds of Yoga practice.
On the other hand, the idea that contemplating the navel and the introspective soul searching and purging of ones troubles that this pastime will bring would more than likely make you mentally stronger is probably true. Would it make one better equipped to play the flute? That would be subjective.
That just about sums it up David.Most of us seem to agree that strength (and resistance training) is a good thing. That everything counts and something is better than nothing at all. That strength and agility are complimentary rather than exclusive. That finger strength, as far as flute-playing is concerned, is not the same as grip strength.
Whale Oil Beef Hooked!