"An Arguement for Misspelling"

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:24 am

Jack wrote:I'd love to. We can make alcohol-free lemonade and listen to Enya.

the lemonade is in the fridge!

just bring Enya!

You can both jump off the porch.

It can't be much more than 14 feet or so....last one to break something wins

Post by **Nanohedron** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:33 am

Alcohol-free lemonade? Didn't know there was any other kind. I don't believe I've ever had alcohol-unfree lemonade. I guess I need to live a little.

missy · Post by **missy** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:39 am

Post by **Nanohedron** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:42 am

Oops. I guess I have to retract that statement.

Honestly, I never consided Mike's to be lemonade-with-alcohol, but alcohol-with-lemonade. Well, I think there's a difference.

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:02 am

Nanohedron wrote: Give it a rest, Jack. You're grasping at straws. You always sooner or later wave your linguistic-change-is-inevitable-and-healthy-and-what-standards-are-really-about-is-the-tyranny-of-the-establishment banner about the place, and I'm not going to disagree with that.

You are being too kind, Nano.

Post by **Nanohedron** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:09 am

As Wild Bill Watkins is wont to say, "I blame me mum."

s1m0n · Post by **s1m0n** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:15 am

Nanohedron wrote: Give it a rest, Jack. You're grasping at straws. You always sooner or later wave your linguistic-change-is-inevitable-and-healthy-and-what-standards-are-really-about-is-the-tyranny-of-the-establishment banner about the place, and I'm not going to disagree with that. Not that I care either way. That's out of my hands, and most certainly yours as well.

Spelling is not linguistics. You might care enough to learn the difference, unless you want to throw away definition, too, and call that linguistics as well.

Jack is correct: All living languages change with time, and spelling* is one of the places linguistic change can show up.

"Correct" spellings are a fuzzy set. What's 'correct' is the way most people write it most of the time. In fact, that's true of all the other things which change in any language: 'right' is what the consensus says is right, and that shifts over time. Sticking by the old 'correct' too long can be as much a barrier to clarity as jumping to the new too soon.

*grammar, pronounciation, lexicon (the list of words), orthography (how they're written, ie letterforms themselves) & syntax are some of the others.

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:19 am

s1m0n wrote: "Correct" spellings are a fuzzy set. What's 'correct' is the way most people write it most of the time. In fact, that's true of all the other things which change in any language: 'right' is what the consensus says is right, and that shifts over time. Sticking by the old 'correct' too long can be as much a barrier to clarity as jumping to the new too soon.

Ever whut yew say!

Post by **Nanohedron** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:37 am

Well, s1m0n (you do know how awkward it is for a keyboard hack like me to type your nick out, don't you?

), you may agree with Jack. That's fine, but I wouldn't go so far out on a limb as to call him "correct".

s1m0n wrote:All living languages change with time, and spelling* is one of the places linguistic change can show up.

Of course. I never disagreed with any of this. Still, I note that you yourself drew a distinction between language and spelling, above. One is not the other, they are not interchangeable, and they are not inseparable.

You say spelling may reflect linguistic change, but honestly, to me that's a biiiiiiiig stretch. Speech is the thing itself. Writing (and spelling) are only conveyances, nothing more. A relationship does not a symbiosis make, otherwise how do we account for the illiterate?

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:41 am

s1m0n wrote:
Nanohedron wrote: Give it a rest, Jack. You're grasping at straws. You always sooner or later wave your linguistic-change-is-inevitable-and-healthy-and-what-standards-are-really-about-is-the-tyranny-of-the-establishment banner about the place, and I'm not going to disagree with that. Not that I care either way. That's out of my hands, and most certainly yours as well.

Spelling is not linguistics. You might care enough to learn the difference, unless you want to throw away definition, too, and call that linguistics as well.
Jack is correct: All living languages change with time, and spelling* is one of the places linguistic change can show up.

"Correct" spellings are a fuzzy set. What's 'correct' is the way most people write it most of the time. In fact, that's true of all the other things which change in any language: 'right' is what the consensus says is right, and that shifts over time. Sticking by the old 'correct' too long can be as much a barrier to clarity as jumping to the new too soon.

*grammar, pronounciation, lexicon (the list of words), orthography (how they're written, ie letterforms themselves) & syntax are some of the others.

Thanks!

I know I'm right. And that Nanohedron apparently has no idea what he's saying, and it's kind of hard to argu(e) with that.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:45 am

Nanohedron, ask any professional linguist (somebody who studies the concepts of language academically, not necessarily somebody who speaks many languages) and she or he will tell you I'm right. I promise.

Post by **Nanohedron** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:52 am

Jack wrote:Nanohedron, ask any professional linguist (somebody who studies language academically, not necessarily somebody who speaks many languages) and she or he will tell you I'm right. I promise.

Right about what? That one equals the other? That in discussing one, one must give equal weight and time to the other? Funny, but that looks like a politically correct tyranny to me. Jack, this thread from its inception has been about spelling. Not language. One can discuss them as separate entities. You seem to be quite willing to confuse this.

Jack wrote:Nanohedron apparently has no idea what he's saying...

No. YOU have no idea what I'm saying. I'm quite clear about me.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:54 am

Denny wrote:
Jack wrote:I'd love to. We can make alcohol-free lemonade and listen to Enya.
the lemonade is in the fridge!

just bring Enya!

You can both jump off the porch.

It can't be much more than 14 feet or so....last one to break something wins

No, no, we're going to MY porch.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:56 am

Nanohedron wrote:
Jack wrote:Nanohedron, ask any professional linguist (somebody who studies language academically, not necessarily somebody who speaks many languages) and she or he will tell you I'm right. I promise.
Right about what? That one equals the other? That in discussing one, one must give equal weight and time to the other? Funny, but that looks like a politically correct tyranny to me. Jack, this thread from its inception has been about spelling. Not language. One can discuss them as separate entities. You seem to be quite willing to confuse this.

They may or may not be separate issues, but even were we to say they're separate, they're at the very least very closely related to one another. You can't have spelling without English, and you can't have English (as we know it today) without spelling it.

FJohnSharp · Post by **FJohnSharp** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:00 pm

Jack wrote:Ergo ergo ergo. Bill O'Reilly says it so it must be cool.

or pompous.