Questions regarding whistles and ITM group playing

Isilwen · Post by **Isilwen** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 8:40 am

ok. Now, I have watched a lot of live ITM performances on TV (just last night there was a BRAVO special, Celtic Tides w/almost every famous Irish Musician we know of on it...), and I noticed that there were virtually no Whistles.

There were a couple Flutes, but the majority was Bodhrans, Fiddles, Vocalists, and other string/percussion instruments. I think I saw only 1 Whistle throughout the entire thing.

Why is this? Isn't the Whistle an important instrument used in ITM??? Now, I know that the Whistle tends to be a quiet instrument and can be drowned out in a group, but even without amps, it can still be heard- I almost think it's the "frosting on the top of the cake," this little musical "fluff" that brings everything together in a song.

However, I'm biased.

But I still want to know,
WHY?

SteveK · Post by **SteveK** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 8:48 am

Didn't Seamus Egan play whistle on Celtic Tides? Maybe it was something else but I thought I remembered him on that show.

Steve

Ridseard · Post by **Ridseard** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 9:16 am

I too do not understand why whistles are not used more extensively.

There is nothing more celestial-sounding than a whistle and flute playing in octave unison. Another nice touch is the harp and U-pipes. Yes, I love listening to the Chieftains!

Roger O'Keeffe · Post by **Roger O'Keeffe** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 10:28 am

A lot of it has to do with increased prosperity in recent years in Ireland. Whereas previously a lot of people wouldn't have the spare cash to buy anything more than a whistle, now anyone who makes a go of the whistle is likely to graduate to either flute or (possibly) pipes since, as discused here previously, the high-end whistles don't seem to be very widespread in Ireland.

_________________
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar

[ This Message was edited by: Roger O'Keeffe on 2002-12-19 11:29 ]

Isilwen · Post by **Isilwen** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 2:17 pm

*sigh* I still think the whistle needs to be used more often.

I say we grab our signs and whistles and forge a picket line to promote Whistle-awareness!!!

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 2:29 pm

On 2002-12-19 15:17, The Whistling Elf wrote:
*sigh* I still think the whistle needs to be used more often.

No. Don't. I don't want to walk into a session to be greeted by six guitarists and 4 whistlers and 23 bodhrans.

I want lots of fiddles, flutes, concertinas. One guitar, one bodhran, and one whistle, maybe two whistles.

mvhplank · Post by **mvhplank** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 3:30 pm

On 2002-12-19 11:28, Roger O'Keeffe wrote:
A lot of it has to do with increased prosperity in recent years in Ireland. Whereas previously a lot of people wouldn't have the spare cash to buy anything more than a whistle, now anyone who makes a go of the whistle is likely to graduate to either flute or (possibly) pipes since, as discused here previously, the high-end whistles don't seem to be very widespread in Ireland.

_________________
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar

That sounds right.

When I attend jams (we don't usually call them "sessions") or even small group lessons, if someone only brings whistles, I'll stick to flute--it just feels like the polite thing to do.

Also, I feel that whistle intonation is fussy, and if you get two (or worse, more) high-octave, not-quite-in-tune-with-each-other instruments going, it can become painful in short order.

Sorry to blaspheme here, but not every tune needs a whistle in it--at least not a high D or higher. A low whistle really makes a nice change of texture, but, alas, they're not quite so common around here.

The exception was when Lee Marsh was over at my place for a workshop and jam. Hearing his low D resonate down the creek was hauntingly lovely.

M
[edits out of fussyness]
_________________
Marguerite
Gettysburg

[ This Message was edited by: mvhplank on 2002-12-19 16:31 ]

paulsdad · Post by **paulsdad** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 5:40 pm

Does ITM stand for Irish Traditional Music?

ChrisLaughlin · Post by **ChrisLaughlin** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 6:22 pm

Basically, and unfortunately, the trend in the session scene here in the USA and even moreso in Ireland, is to get started on the whistle and then move on to a more "respectable" instrument. Almost every flute player I know in the Boston area started on whistle and then moved onto flute, very rarely playing the whistle in session anymore. Likewise, I know very few "whistle players" in the session scene who haven't moved on to other instruments after a couple years. Part of this might be due to the fact that the whistle is relatively easy, whereas an instrument like flute or pipes requires a huge amount of dedication and practice.
In Ireland I think you'll find that almost everyone who plays Irish music, no matter what instrument they play, is also fairly handy on the whistle. They consider it a good starter instrument for children, to get the feel for the music and the tunes before moving on to fiddle, flute, concertina, etc.
Best,
Chris

adriancarrington · Post by **adriancarrington** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 7:15 pm

In light of Chris's comments above, it's also interesting to note that many posts in this forum mention that high-end whistles are rarely seen in Ireland. Perhaps if they were more widely encountered there, it would make a difference to how they are perceived. Some of them are undoubtedly more "musical" sounding than the average cheap whistle. I could well be wrong of course, but it's food for thought....
For my own part, although I'm enjoying the challenge of mastering my M&E polymer flute, I find my desire to play the whistle is in no way diminished. What I DO find is that my whistle playing is beginning to change for the better as a result of my work on the flute. This is chiefly in the way I use breath to give pulse and drive to a tune. It's an interesting learning process.
To my ears, a good whistle in the right hands is an incredibly powerful musical tool, and if people fail to appreciate this, it is a great shame. The fact that the whistle has been rather overlooked in the TV programme is hardly a surprise. As a bass player I lost count of the number of times that I watched televised footage where the camera would linger on the work of, say, a rhythm guitarist while the bass player was pulling of some incredible solo work. It used to drive me NUTS!!!
Life is full of these little frustrations I'm afraid. The commercialisation of music inflicts a great many horrors upon us. Thank goodness that those of us prepared to research and dig a little deeper into our music can still find such a treasure trove of astonishingly good , but little-known material.
Long live the whistle!

Best wishes, Adrian

mvhplank · Post by **mvhplank** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 8:17 pm

On 2002-12-19 18:40, paulsdad wrote:
Does ITM stand for Irish Traditional Music?

Yes, so far as I know. Sometimes the shorthand seems to be "Irtrad," and, more generically, "trad."

M

mvhplank · Post by **mvhplank** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 8:35 pm

Now...

What about "too much of a good thing"? I agree that a good whistle is icing on the cake, but I don't want a whole cake made of icing. Or, as a local musician and teacher tries to tell us, dropping out is not a bad thing and enriches the sound when you come back in. In say, a Chieftains CD, or one of Seamus Egan's, there's not a whistle in every track.

And, on dropping out, what about the player who won't NOT play? The ornaments are on just about every note and pretty muddy (leaving the tune unrecognizable). This offender will attempt to play in keys not suited to that one whistle by "leaving out notes"--but isn't capable of doing it. This person is immune to suggestion, correction, and even ejection.

Well, I can't think offhand of a third point to round this off, but much as I enjoy the whistle, I just don't see it as an instrument that should never be put away. I will concede that swapping off to low whistle adds another level of interest while staying in the simple flute family. I haven't been able to make the reach on any low D I've picked up, but I guess that's why I still use the Boehm flute, which is what I started on (mumble) years ago before finding the true path to WhOA.

On the other hand, I can think of dozens of situations when I'd rather have a whistle than a flute, but since we all can, I won't ennumerate mine.

M

LeeMarsh · Post by **LeeMarsh** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 9:54 pm

First, Marguerite, thanks for reminding me of the beauty I felt rise, sitting on your back porch, gazing down the glen. It's nice to hear it found a voice others enjoyed.

As to what instruments should play at session or other opportunites for folks to play together - my thoughts - All: individually and severally. What I mean is, one of the beauties I've found in Irish traditional music is that each instrument adds it own voice to the melody, its own shadings and character. The sessions I've enjoyed most are those that not only had the mob playing, but also sprinkled liberally with solos, duets, trios, quartets with a range of combinations of mixed or homogenious instruments.

One group of sessions comes to mind where the changing mix of those playing and those lending ear added an ease that connected everyone to the music. A tune by 4 flutes, an air by single soprano whistle, a march of 3 guitars and 2 bodhrans pushing a leading fiddle and a solid un-ornamented flute. A singer accompanied by bodhran alone. All had opportunity to play, all had the ease to just listen, all were connected to the music. I felt that these connections validated the traditions, giving them life, extending their vitality.

So, individually and severally ...

ChrisLaughlin · Post by **ChrisLaughlin** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 10:24 pm

3 guitars and 2 bodhrans?!?!?!? RUN AWAY!!!!

LeeMarsh · Post by **LeeMarsh** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 10:38 pm

On 2002-12-19 23:24, ChrisLaughlin wrote:
3 guitars and 2 bodhrans?!?!?!? RUN AWAY!!!!

Chris, It was a day we all kind of felt like marching some where and taking a really big club with us, and educating some characters vigorously. (Second week of September 2001) The heavy rythm was more like a working march and less like a session tune.

We got it out of our systems and went back to normal mode.

An occasional cathartic moment or some such can free you to ...