Michael Vignoles Ebony flute?

Vikke · Post by **Vikke** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:42 am

Hi you all! My name is Vikke from Hungary.
I started to learn in my Tony Dixon polymer flute in the last autumn, but now, I'd like to buy a wooden one.
What are you think about Michael Vignoles Ebony flute??
http://www.irelandwoodcrafts.com/produc ... cts_id=115
Very cheap, but if it's not so crappy it'll be enough for me. Thanks for the advice!

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:44 am

Hi Vikke, and welcome!
I haven't come across Michael Vignoles before, nor seen mention of him or his flutes that I recall. As there is a total lack of information about most of his products on his website, most especially the flute - not even a close-up picture of that - it really isn't possible to express an opinion. The website does say he makes everything himself and I'm not directly challenging that, but I do think that so far as one can tell the flute and its box look very like other generic "Irish" flutes that one sees all over the place, many of them being made in Pakistan. Some are good, others poor. I would at least contact him and ask some questions before buying! I find it strange that, as a maker, he doesn't give any information at all about what models he is copying, what timber and other materials he is using and how he sources it, nor his making methodology and background - even for his main product line, bodhrans. Have a look at some other makers' websites and you will see what I mean! There are plenty of other starter keyless flutes in that price range or a little higher which can be vouched for in terms of origin, quality and playability by forum members here and/or whose makers have much more informative websites.

If you can't get comments on the Vignoles product from people who have direct experience of them, I'd say check out Doc Jones' online catalogue and Hobgoblin etc. - if you're going to go for a generic keyless flute, at least get it from a known source. Also do some browsing of the flute makers on the Makers List - many of them make keyless starter models in the price range you are contemplating. There's plenty of choice out there - do a bit more research (you'll learn lots in the process!) and be as sure as possible that you are spending your money on what you actually want.

Darren · Post by **Darren** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:04 am

I would certainly be wary of buying a flute for $400 dollars unless there have been recommendations from users.

The Casey Burns Folk Flute is mentioned over and over again on these forums and is known for excellent sound and build quality and a crazy good deal. It is also under $400 but comes for a very reputable maker.

http://www.caseyburnsflutes.com/ff.php

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:13 am

Michael Vignoles is a known uilleann pipe maker and has a good reputation. Do search in the uilleann pipe forum here on C&F, and you will find plenty of discussions on his work.

Cathy Wilde · Post by **Cathy Wilde** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:26 am

Ditto Jonathan. Mr. Vignoles is also a fine piper and whistle player. I would imagine his flutes would display a solid grade of workmanship.

GalegoMan · Post by **GalegoMan** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:34 am

mmm..., well I don't know how this flutes sounds, but I've just came from Ireland, and I saw Vignoles instruments for sale in souvenir stores, between Leprechauns and Guinness items...

Jose' Scotte' Este' · Post by **Jose' Scotte' Este'** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:26 pm

I too am interested in purchasing a flute, and was intrigued by Vignoles' prices. So far only speculation on this thread. Is anyone able to post something objective, or send me a PM if you have played one of his flutes? thanks.

Henke · Post by **Henke** » Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:47 am

Jose' Scotte' Este' wrote:I too am interested in purchasing a flute, and was intrigued by Vignoles' prices. So far only speculation on this thread. Is anyone able to post something objective, or send me a PM if you have played one of his flutes? thanks.

Here's something objective for you: Try something with a proven track record. These things do exist in the same price range. Burns Folk Flute is less than $400 and it's wooden (but lacking tuning slide and retrofit possibilities), the great polymer flutes are also in the same range, M&E R&R and Seery Pratten and they have tuning slides and possibility to retro fit keys in the future.
Why spend money on something you have no idea about what you'll get, when there are great flutes which get endorsed time after time in the exact same price range?

kkrell · Post by **kkrell** » Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:32 am

A Seery polymer flute is close to $700 these days. Certainly available for less in used condition. Doc Jones at the Irish Flute Store has them at about $499, and there is a recent thread on C&F ( http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=61724 ) at a price that DOES bring it into range.

Kevin Krell

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:19 am

Jonathan wrote:Michael Vignoles is a known uilleann pipe maker and has a good reputation. Do search in the uilleann pipe forum here on C&F, and you will find plenty of discussions on his work.

In fact the reputation is rather mixed, I haven't seen any of his more recent work his earlier pipes were certainly, well, less recommendable. Then again, he may have come greatly since. He certainly has a market carved out for himself in the low price bracket of shops as well as on-line.

Never buy any instrument untried and unseen, that's the safe and only way to go.

crookedtune · Post by **crookedtune** » Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:44 am

Peter Laban wrote: Never buy any instrument untried and unseen, that's the safe and only way to go.

Unfortunately, that's an impossibility for the vast majority of us, which was the reason for the original question. I suggest, as does Henke, that the value of this board is that you can read a wide variety of opinions, and get a sense of a maker's reputation. I second the Burns, M&E, and Seery suggestions.

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:50 am

Well, the new get to the point of the value of recommendations again. I have seen instruments of makers recommended here (not on this thread but in general on the forums) that were very mediocre indeed, completely lacking in refinement. It's a tricky business going by internet recommendations and I seriously wouldn't recommend buying any instrument unseen/untried (I have followed up a few recommendations of whistles here that made me curious, ending up in each case with a whistle I would not have bought if I had tried it beforehand). And that leaves all of us with a few roads closed to us, but such is life. Each of us has to make his/her own choices based on our own requirements, nobody else can do that for us.

I.D.10-t · Post by **I.D.10-t** » Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:34 am

It is kind of a difficult situation if you are a inexperienced player. The experienced player walks into the store, plays ten instruments, picks the best three, and then the novice walks in and gets one of the less desirable ones, not knowing what to look or listen for. Constancy has some value in these situations, even if individual personality of the instrument lacks. Access to the instrument is one thing having the ability to properly evaluate it (for oneself, let alone objectively) is another.

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:52 am

Yes but seriously, to stay with the present example: your man above recommending and quoting 'a good reputation'. Here are a few quotes from the piping forum that appeared alongside positive ones, that mainly came from starting pipers ( the positive ones):

On 2 sept 2002 John Allison wrote:Through my experience with four different sets of Vignoles pipes, a flat set would be the best thing for them. Place them directly under the wheels of your car and drive back and forth about a dozen times!

On the other hand if you have played the ones in questions, like them, and find they are a reasonable price then go for it...I believe them to be a rare find.

In 2001, MarkJ wrote:please check your private messages as I am not willing to post what I wrote, here on this open forum.

In 2003, AlanB wrote:I've reeded a few Vignoles chanters and they've all been pretty much the same. One of the top pipemakers (remaining nameless of course) remarked "Strictly for the Tourists"................

Alan

Also in 2003, Michael Eskin wrote:I think we've must have had a string of bad luck in the SoCal Uilleann pipers club, the Vignoles sets we've had come through all had one problem or another. Looked great, but either had airflow, reed, or chanter tuning issues.

Does that warrant the recommendation of 'good reputation' on this thread?

I like to give the man the benefit of the doubt and prefer to think he may have come on since his early days but from the pipes I have seen and the reactions posted on the forums here, the feedback of 'good reputation' doesn't seem, at least , undisputed.

The point of the exercise is to show you don't want to take what you read here for granted.

Check out what you buy. Always.

[edited to fix messed up quoting]

crookedtune · Post by **crookedtune** » Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:53 am

Peter Laban wrote:Well, the new get to the point of the value of recommendations again. I have seen instruments of makers recommended here (not on this thread but in general on the forums) that were very mediocre indeed, completely lacking in refinement.

And you're not alone in that, but those recommendations seldom stand. It is precisely because I'm new that I read the opinions. It's easy enough to determine who has skills and experience, particularly when they post clips. And we learn quickly who to write off. The result is that we have a stable of makers that most of us on this board trust, and participants (such as yourself) whose opinions are always worth considering, but never to be taken as gospel.