Video of Turlough O'Carolan's Si Bheag Si Mhor

MichaelMurrayGuitar · Post by **MichaelMurrayGuitar** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:42 pm

Hi everyone, I am a professional musician and guitar teacher from Montreal. Classical guitar not celtic music is my specialty but one of my students just worked on Turlough O'Carolan's Si Bheag Si Mhor and we recorded a video of it so I thought I would post here and see what people think of it and hopefully get her some hits on Youtube. The address of the video is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S93qbd5thcs

Maybe some of the guitarists on here might be interested in checking out my website. It has some articles on choosing a guitar teacher, buying a guitar, fingering issues, performance anxiety, etc. There are also some recordings of me playing and videos of me and some of my other students. The address is: http://www.michaelmurrayguitar.com

djm · Post by **djm** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:26 pm

This seems to happen alot with people from other disciplines: they play Irish music far too slow. You could nearly double the speed of the guitar portion of the Sí Bheag Sí Mhór video. Think bouncy Baroque, not agonizingly slow aires.

djm

MichaelMurrayGuitar · Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:23 pm

djm wrote:This seems to happen alot with people from other disciplines: they play Irish music far too slow. You could nearly double the speed of the guitar portion of the Sí Bheag Sí Mhór video. Think bouncy Baroque, not agonizingly slow aires.

djm

After reading your comment I listened to a number of versions on Youtube on various instruments including the original instrument harp. They all seemed to be at a speed similar to or only slightly faster than the speed Chrissy plays it at. The only exception were the solo tin flute versions but solo wind instruments usually play everything a bit faster. Do you have any examples of recordings or videos that play it at the speed you like?

mukade · Post by **mukade** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:00 am

I think it works well both ways.
Nobody knows how these harp tunes were originally played.

Here is a faster version played in a baroque style accompanied by harpsichord and cello.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SzMaImV38Q

Mukade

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:30 am

Nobody knows how these harp tunes were originally played.

In the Bunting collection Andante affetuoso is indicated

MTGuru · Post by **MTGuru** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:47 am

Derek Bell (harp) plays this at around MM 180 on Carolan's Receipt, which is pretty perky. Cormac Breatnach is cranking at around 190. Here it's closer to 102. I think there's room for interpretation.

I think a bigger problem here is the phrasing. It's not quite right, too short. It sounds like she's "playing the bar lines" instead of phrasing the natural longer contours of the tune. And some extra speed would help overcome the guitar problem of sustaining those notes through the phrases. So the two are related.

But a good start. This stuff is hard on guitar. So more power to her fingers.

Maybe try William Coulter, Steve Baughman for other guitar examples.

SteveShaw · Post by **SteveShaw** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:55 am

I thought it was lovely. We always play this tune quite slowly, possibly more like the andante that Peter refers to. This is a bit slower than that perhaps. This is a tasteful and imaginative interpretation of a piece that we can't know the intended pace of, if indeed there ever was a single intended pace. The tread is somewhat deliberate in places but a nice, lilting flow will come in time I'm sure. If she did this in our session she'd be a raging success! I've always had a real blind spot about Planxty's version of this on the black album, which always sounds to me like they can't wait to get it finished, and I love nearly everything else by Planxty.

djm · Post by **djm** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:42 am

<A TARGET="NEW" HREF="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMGX472pMR8">Here's the Planxty version.</A> This is about as slow as you would ever want to get it. Here they are aiming more for stately, I think. Check out Donal Lunny's guitar work; more of a musical filigree than just sustained chords.

djm

mukade · Post by **mukade** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:09 am

djm wrote:<A TARGET="NEW" HREF="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMGX472pMR8">Here's the Planxty version.</A> This is about as slow as you would ever want to get it. Here they are aiming more for stately, I think. Check out Donal Lunny's guitar work; more of a musical filigree than just sustained chords.

djm

That sounds better than the original album version.
They messed around with the stereo and the guitar is stuck in one ear for most of the tune.

Also, have a listen to the live version on the Chieftains in China.
Paddy's pipes sound like a different instrument.

Mukade

SteveShaw · Post by **SteveShaw** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:16 am

Well I like it slow, so there.

Dr Funkenstein · Post by **Dr Funkenstein** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:42 am

You can listen to Steve Cooney play Si Bheag Si Mhor at the 1:34 mark in this youtube clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xInuesYrUPA

MichaelMurrayGuitar · Post by **MichaelMurrayGuitar** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:27 am

djm wrote:<A TARGET="NEW" HREF="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMGX472pMR8">Here's the Planxty version.</A> This is about as slow as you would ever want to get it. Here they are aiming more for stately, I think. Check out Donal Lunny's guitar work; more of a musical filigree than just sustained chords.

djm

I have to disagree with the statement that this is as slow as you would ever want it. I don't mind it at that tempo but it is obviously an instrumental tempo. If it were sung at that speed it would sound terrible. Some people have posted some very interesting comments about the performance in this thread but I don't really don't see any convincing arguments for your opinion that the song must be much faster.

MTGuru · Post by **MTGuru** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:47 am

Dr Funkenstein wrote:You can listen to Steve Cooney play Si Bheag Si Mhor at the 1:34 mark in this youtube clip:

Wow, that is a nice arrangement and performance, very guitaristic. Thank you, Dr. F.

Michael, I think what some of the people here are saying is that their preferences are shaped by the examples of well-respected traditional artists performing this traditional tune within the tradition. Or, in the case of Bunting, an acknowledged source. And those carry some weight.

If you disagree, then what's the basis for your disagreement, beyond a personal sense that it would sound bad? Or an distinction between instrumental tempo and vocal tempo which may or may not hold up in the traditional aesthetic? (And again, I agree that there's room for interpretation.)

Traditional musicians are used to classically-trained players with little vested in the tradition appropriating repertoire and misinterpreting it. So you're probably treading on some sensitivities here.

As for Mr. Shaw ... he's a force of nature unto himself.

SteveShaw · Post by **SteveShaw** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:00 am

Whatever instrument you play, try it unaccompanied fast, then slow - andante/walking speed, kind of thing. It's a tune with lots of room inside for expression. Going at it too fast sharply reduces these possibilities. And what's so wrong with a nice, lilty, laid back, slightly wistful melody in ITM, a relief from the exploits of the reel sharks but not a slow air either? We need more of it!

talasiga · Post by **talasiga** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:30 am

Peter Laban wrote: In the Bunting collection Andante affetuoso is indicated

My italian is not good. Does this mean
eating half cooked pasta will make you so fat
or
tenderly at moderately slow speed
or
bouncy bouncy?

djm wrote:This seems to happen alot with people from other disciplines: they play Irish music far too slow.
..................

I wouldn't say Martin Hayes plays too slow. Anyway he is not from another discipline.

(yeah, yeah! I know he is a fiddle player. Try and clare your focus and see my point).

djm wrote:Think bouncy Baroque, not agonizingly slow aires.

Baroque! Why there's a discipline within a discipline!