'He's great to work with, he'll take care of it'

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:16 am

Let's get back to whistle making and give a few things another whirl.

I know I can sound a bit full on when I say some whistles are downright mediocre and made by people who don't play very well and stuff like that but I followed a link from the forum this morning and ended up listening to yet another clip on a maker's website. The playing was very staccato and betrayed very little understanding of jig playing, well fair enough so far. If it weren't that the tune ended on a bottom D that was incredibly flat (maybe it struck a chord with me if you forgive the pun, as I recently received a whistle with a flat, although quite that flat, bottom note. And yes I went back to the clip to let the tuner confirm what I already heard before posting this).

I mean what are people thinking? Does the maker of that whistle run it by a tuner before recording it? He really should have. Do people buy a whistle that has a glaring bum note like that? You'd start wondering that if the maker seems to think it fit for advertising and probably is convinced it shows his whistle at it's best what other lapses you can expect? Does the maker hope for his buyers to return for another whistle if the whistle in the clip is a fair representation of his output? If it was a mistake or just sloppiness to put up the clip, how does that translate to his manufacturing? Questions, questions.

I know it's one of my pet peeves but should we ignore these things and not mention them at all?

Pyroh · Post by **Pyroh** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:27 am

Actually, I think it´s good to mention it...probably.

This way, everyone writes mostly "I have this and it´s perfect" and people, who don´t have perfect whistles mostly don´t write it (reasons were already stated). So it creates an image of perfect-whistle world, which is obviously not true, and when everyone´s great, you can't distinguish what´s great and what´s only good, or what´s mediocre.

Plus there´s this policy of not stating the maker, which is sometimes problematic. On the other hand, there are very few flamewars, and the atmosphere seems really nice to me.

Personally, if I got something not-so-good from my favourite maker, while many other things by him are great, I wouldn´t state it either, I guess, as it would hurt his reputation. If you have x, which has 50 posts on "awesome whistle", y, which has 36 "awesome whistle" and z, having 40"awesome whistle" and 1"this time it was bad" - I believe many people would automatically skip z as the only "theoretically problematic".

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:58 am

I wonder, and it's only a wild theory, if some makers make whistles mainly for whistle forum crowds like this one, where the quality of the actual sound it produces is less important than how the whistle looks and what the whistle is made of. There's definitely a 'market' for beautiful whistles that don't necesserily play well. There are many 'collectors' with lots of money here, that can't play the basics. I'm just wondering.

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:13 am

Azalin wrote:I wonder, and it's only a wild theory, if some makers make whistles mainly for whistle forum crowds like this one, where the quality of the actual sound it produces is less important than how the whistle looks and what the whistle is made of. There's definitely a 'market' for beautiful whistles that don't necesserily play well. There are many 'collectors' with lots of money here, that can't play the basics. I'm just wondering.

Certainly there are quite a few makers selling many whistles made from woods that are attractive but unsuitable for the task: These whistles are going to crack in relatively short order, particularly as hardly anyone is seasoning their wood properly to boot. Still, people don't seem to care as long as they have a pretty whistle now, and of course there's no need to worry cause the makers will take care of you if there's ever a problem....

It's all market driven of course, and the market here wants pretty and quick, so that's what we get. Aspects of quality are further down the list of priority.

Loren

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:33 am

This way, everyone writes mostly "I have this and it´s perfect" and people, who don´t have perfect whistles mostly don´t write it (reasons were already stated). So it creates an image of perfect-whistle world, which is obviously not true, and when everyone´s great, you can't distinguish what´s great and what´s only good, or what´s mediocre.

Well, I had my curiosity piqued a while ago by a relentless stream of 'perfect' qualifications and gushing reviews that appeared on the forum and on the back of that ordered a whistle that is indeed a nice whistle that I'd certainly recommend, if the maker makes sure the bottom note is in tune. On mine it wasn't.

The reviews did create a high, and probably unrealistic, expectation that made the disappointment of the flat bell note weigh stronger. Again, the maker is a nice guy and I won't say a bad word there and neither did I send the whistle back (too much hassle) but each time I pick up the whistle the out of tune note annoys me.

Altogether this made me think how that sort of reviews are eventually counter productive: you create a hype and expectations, flowing from a legitimate and genuine enthusiasm (I recognise and appreciate the good intention), that will generate sales but you also up the likelihood of disappointment (try live up to perfection) that will eliminate a chance of a repeat order, once burned twice shy after all.

pancelticpiper · Post by **pancelticpiper** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:09 am

In quickly looking over this entire thread, two things jumped out.
"Problems" with whistles listed were
-a flat bottom D
-a flat C#
I myself prefer a bottom D that's a bit flat so that it can be "pushed" and not go sharp.
And I prefer a C# that's flat. Remember that the top hole has three functions:
1) a vent hole for middle D
2) a tone hole for C sharp
3) a tone hole for the cross-fingered C natural

In nearly all cases, if the hole is big enough to make an in-tune C sharp if blown at the same strength as the rest of the scale, the C natural will be too sharp. Since the traditional ITM I play has a lot more C naturals than C sharps, I'd much rather have a strong steady in-tune C natural and have to blow a bit harder to bring the C sharp in tune.

Somebody coming from a recorder or Boehm flute background, in short, might view as flaws things that a trad player might view as strengths.

What's a maker to do?

But, over the years, there have been a number of times that I've played a number of great instruments from a particular maker, got on that maker's wait list, paid a large sum of money, and in the end, after a year or more of waiting, received an instrument which was completely inferior to the previous instruments I had played by that maker.

That's happened with high-end Irish wood flutes, high-end whistles, and high-end uilleann chanters.

It's astonishing, after playing several terrific flutes by a certain maker, to finally get your flute from them only to find it's markedly inferior.

To play two or three great chanters from an uilleann maker, who also comes highly recommended by a number of famous players, to wait two years, and get a chanter with tone holes drilled in different places, with a different bore design, that plays poorly. Side-by-side comparison with other chanters by the same maker proves it.

To play a number of great low D whistles by a top high-end maker, to order and receive one, only to find that yours is horrid. Poor voicing, terrible intonation.

And in each case, it's just too bad. No recourse from the maker.

Live and learn.

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:20 am

I myself prefer a bottom D that's a bit flat so that it can be "pushed" and not go sharp.

The flat D I was talking about is not to be pushed, it goes to autocran long before it comes to pitch.

At today's prices I would not have a set of pipes or chanter sent out to me, I'd collect it from the maker and make sure it's well set up before I accept it. Same for a flute, pick up at the maker before money changes hands.

charlie_butterworth · Post by **charlie_butterworth** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:35 am

Maybe I am asking too much here. Couldn't we have a set of stickies for the major "boutique" whistle craftsmen in which folk can post comments both positive and negative?

There may be some need for some editing by moderators to ensure that "flaming" doesn't happen of both maker and commentor.

Surely any whistle maker who stands by their product would welcome such threads.

In postings, the folks making comments should indicate their skill level. As long as we could behave politely, such threads may prove extremely useful to those of us who cannot play well but would like a higher-end whistle and cannot find local stores in which to demo them.

Personally, I am waiting until I approach a basic level of mediocrity for three jigs before I buy a Burke DBST. It may be a while as my skill levels seem to plateau then back-track, before they improve

Charlie

CranberryDog · Post by **CranberryDog** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:22 am

I've been playing whistle since "Chieftains Five" was released. At that time and to present date, my main instrument is guitar: acoustic steel string, nylon string (flamenco) and National tricone bottle neck blues.

Since I am a performing professional musician, I find it necessary to purchase and play professional level instruments. Since I often play with other musicians it is a rudimentry necessity that what ever instrument I play must play in tune and have a high level of "playabillity".

The search for a whistle with professional level attributes was rather expensive and time consuming. Often the descriptor "tunable" whistle was an oxymoron.

I have found makers who turns out a consistently professional level whistles. They are out there, In keeping with the not naming anyone tone in this thread I'll not name names. If you would like to know what works for me, I will be happy to respond to PMs.

DaveAuty · Post by **DaveAuty** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:36 am

I am obviously not condoning a blatantly out of tune note but would just like to make a point...
I seem to remember that a whistle player playing a Sindt D whistle (it might have been Mary Bergin) used a piece of tape to partially cover a hole to keep the whistle in tune, on the top end I think.
My Sindt does get slightly sharp at the top end but not enough to bother me.
I thought that wind instruments never are perfectly in tune with themselves...I'm sure I will be corrected if I am wrong.

Brigitte · Post by **Brigitte** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:55 am

This is an interesting thread and at times as a consumer myself as well as a maker's wife painful to read. Painful in what I read about what is wrong with instruments and more so if I read quote "No recourse from the maker. "

I live in Europe, I do not know how this is in Canada or the US or in Australia BUT everywhere in the world THERE IS CONSUMER PROTECTION.... this magic words mean in Europe there is a minimum of 2 years product warranty by the company selling it to you, be they the maker or not. If they are a shop they have to deal with the maker for you in case you cannot contact them directly. Sweden i.e. has legal binding 3 years, UK I only learned today even up to 6 years depending on the product. Nevertheless European law says "2 years". I am aware that many players - sorry for this brushing over a comb - only realise that their instrument is in tune if they have to use it in a recording session or when they first join a band. If a beginner only realises after years that what they thought is fine is not, then still it is a production flaw.

I would certainly believe that within a time frame of two years someone who buys a whistle should be safe enough to find out if their instrument has tuning issues or else that is down to the making and that enables you to send this instrument back to get one that is in flawless if your one is not repairable..... even later than 2 years, if the makers is still in existence and a serious maker they should be willing to stand behind their work if not I would not regard them as serious. Punkt aus.!

Sending back an instrument for warranty repairs sometimes is combined with hassle on the players side, no matter how good a maker is, sometimes this is the only way that they have a chance to rectify a problem. The costs for postage to send back need to be paid on the players side unless they have the chance to go along and have it done there and then. This might be something to consider if you buy from an overseas maker but the shipping back costs certainly is down to carry by the maker.

It is not rare that I hear people do not send an instrument back to have them repaired, this is their own decision but then again I cannot understand this mind set especially if they have paid their hard earned money for it.

Hope this helps
Brigitte

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:32 am

Peter Laban wrote:Well, I had my curiosity piqued a while ago by a relentless stream of 'perfect' qualifications and gushing reviews that appeared on the forum and on the back of that ordered a whistle that is indeed a nice whistle that I'd certainly recommend, if the maker makes sure the bottom note is in tune. On mine it wasn't.

The reviews did create a high, and probably unrealistic, expectation that made the disappointment of the flat bell note weigh stronger. Again, the maker is a nice guy and I won't say a bad word there and neither did I send the whistle back (too much hassle) but each time I pick up the whistle the out of tune note annoys me.

Peter, I would like to suggest that you go ahead and send the whistle back for adjustment. That will alert the maker to the problem and should allow him to change what he's doing so he can tighten up his procedures. It sounds as though you like the whistle except for that, and the defect is preventing the whistle from giving the pleasure it should. It would be nice if yours is the last whistle he makes that disappoints a customer for that reason.

As I mentioned earlier, whistlemaking is not very well charted territory, and every maker is a student, regardless of the level of expertise attained so far. In that way, to a certain extent, each whistle is a co-creation between the maker and the musician. Your contribution can be extremely valuable.

Best wishes,
Jerry

Post by **Dale** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:12 am

I have to admit that I tend think that the market for whistles is closer to being saturated than to being wide open.

Although this is old hat, I think I have to object to this idea that negative comments aren't permitted on the forum. Now there may be a dynamic in place that all whistle makers have their vocal proponents such that if something negative gets said, those proponents are vocal in disagreeing. I don't want to discourage negative reviews, but I also don't want to discourage people from disagreeing.

What we have discouraged is a negative review that's not elaborated. I don't think it's fair to say, "I played an Acme and it was awful. " I do think it's fair to say, "I played an Acme and it was out of tune, shoddily constructed, smelled strongly of brass," and whatever.

Two related issues. I think some folks might want the freedom to be negative and to be protected from disagreement.

But, and this one does bother me: There's a kind of false egalitarianism on this kind of message board. If I arrive as a newcomer to this board, I don't know the difference between an opinion expressed by, say, Peter Laban, as opposed to droves of other forum members who don't (yet) have the ability to discriminate between good and bad instruments, good and bad playing, but believe they do. (I have to be charitable here, because this forum was founded by a person who belonged to the latter category. Now he's much more aware of what he doesn't know and can't do well!)

I've thought about ways of dealing with this and remain open to suggestions.

Post by **Dale** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:26 am

charlie_butterworth wrote:Maybe I am asking too much here. Couldn't we have a set of stickies for the major "boutique" whistle craftsmen in which folk can post comments both positive and negative?

There may be some need for some editing by moderators to ensure that "flaming" doesn't happen of both maker and commentor.

Surely any whistle maker who stands by their product would welcome such threads.

In postings, the folks making comments should indicate their skill level. As long as we could behave politely, such threads may prove extremely useful to those of us who cannot play well but would like a higher-end whistle and cannot find local stores in which to demo them.

Personally, I am waiting until I approach a basic level of mediocrity for three jigs before I buy a Burke DBST. It may be a while as my skill levels seem to plateau then back-track, before they improve

Charlie

Thanks, but self-assessment of skill level is part of the problem.

What I would love is to have a team or 2 to 4 "senior" reviewers. I've actually approached a few people who declined. For good and interesting reasons. And, it's obviously not the kind of gig you want people applying for.

To be honest, as time has passed, I'm not at all convinced that the proliferation of "high-end" makers has been a good thing and given, uh, my role in that proliferation, it's a bit painful.

Clearly even worse, though, is the number of people making just dreadful instruments, although I do think the "marketplace" eventually gets round to responding. I think a lot of people get enamoured with the instrument and have just enough shop skills to put out something that, you know, works, but just doesn't have ANYTHING about it that would justify it as a buying option. I have boxes and boxes of copper tubes that people have sent me that belong to that category.

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:06 am

Clearly even worse, though, is the number of people making just dreadful instruments, although I do think the "marketplace" eventually gets round to responding. I think a lot of people get enamoured with the instrument and have just enough shop skills to put out something that, you know, works, but just doesn't have ANYTHING about it that would justify it as a buying option. I have boxes and boxes of copper tubes that people have sent me that belong to that category.

It's only such a shame before that happens half the people on the forum get stuck with instruments like that. How many Serpents are rusting in drawers or are being used as tent-pegs out there? Be honest now.

It's good to have a choice though, once you separate the chaff from the rest.