'He's great to work with, he'll take care of it'

[Pyroh]

I really want to try to keep this away from the mass produced-craftman made, flawed player or specific cases scenarios.

When ordering an instrument from an established maker I think we can have reasonable expectations with regard to quality, in other words we should not expect anything untoward with respect to manufacture and tuning etc. Personally I would never send back anything I order because I don't like the sound of it, in other words because of taste issues. I really think that is something you need to sort out before ordering and if you order blind you take the risk and shouldn't hassle the maker about it.

So, let's try get to this (Jim is just about the only one who really tried to focus on the issue) why put a maker on a pedestal if he offers to fix a defect like bad tuning while in the process he is putting you through the hassle of sending stuff back, leaving you without your whistle in the meantime?

Ofcourse I know we all like to think of makers as nice, dedicated and reasonable people, even in the unfortunate cases where things get sent out that maybe shouldn't have.

Well, in general, making of a whistle is not that short process, in area of hand-made whistles, which I prefer...and if a maker says he spends hours working with it, and I get something obviously flawed, so he didn´t even bother to try the whistle well, it seems weird.

When someone sells me crap, and he says, that if I want, I can send it back, so he repairs it...what? When I buy a ferrari, I don´t want a car without an engine, which will be graciously installed inside, if I send it back...

I don´t call the thing you describe as "good customer service", but "at least he´s not a complete crook".

>>not trying to derail alert<<
When someone buys a Generation, for few bucks, it´s fine that some are good, some are bad. But in means of "high end" whistles, I expect, at least, a whistle with very good->perfect tuning and no material flaws. Whether I like the particular sound or not is my problem, not the makers (unless we agreed on custom sound).

[Bothrops]

I completely agree with Pyroh.

[jim stone]

'This is not about the occasional slip up but I am talking about things no maker could get away with if the whistle would have been sold over the counter, with the buyer taking a test-drive before buying. '

I've owned a number of high-end whistles and only once
seen something like this. The slide on the two-piece whistle
(from a maker known for his craftsmanship) didn't hold
the headjoint, it was way too loose. I sent it to him
and he fixed it and sent it back to me the same day.
I've owned a number of whistles from this fellow,
all but this one beautifully made, and this one has
been perfect ever since. I figure it was an apprentice
in his shop or anyway a mistake was made in
releasing it on a busy day. No blame. This
was Chris Abell.

I once sent back a low D whistle to a top maker
because the Csharp was too flat. He worked on it
for a couple of weeks and everytime he tried
to adjust it something else went out of tune.
So he sent me a new one. Again no blame.
A Flat C sharp could slip through. I've owned
several whistles from this fellow and they
were fine.

So I'm not personally aware of whistles being sent to customers
that no one would buy over the counter, except
for the Abell I mentioned above.

If a maker is sending out a fair number of defective
whistles, s/he has problems.
I certainly wouldn't put such a person on a pedestal.
If such a maker exists and is being put on a pedestal,
suggest you ask the people who put him there
why they do it. I think we don't know the
answer to your question.

[charlie_butterworth]

Personally I would never send back anything I order because I don't like the sound of it, in other words because of taste issues. I really think that is something you need to sort out before ordering and if you order blind you take the risk and shouldn't hassle the maker about it.

I don't necessarily agree with you on this and I don't think that many of the high end makers would. It is already difficult enough finding stores that carry the cheapest of whistles, without having to find a place to try out the high-end ones. If this were the case than makers such as Burke and Sindt would likely be quite unsuccessful. Another industry with high end is home audio. The high end stores will allow you to demo gear at home. When I recently needed a new CD player, I would not have spent $900 on a player if I could not have tested it at home alongside cheaper units. In this case, the dealers and manufacturers expect home demonstrations.

So, let's try get to this (Jim is just about the only one who really tried to focus on the issue) why put a maker on a pedestal if he offers to fix a defect like bad tuning while in the process he is putting you through the hassle of sending stuff back, leaving you without your whistle in the meantime?

This would be like a whistle maker selling whistles that he or she would not accept for themselves, which would be very poor practise - IMO. In this case, it could be a question of quality-control and sufficient testing of instruments prior to mailing out. Most new items some with some form of manufacturer's guarantee, so why shouldn't high end whistles? They do - the ability to send them back.

Maybe Peter's question should be asking how often high end whistles have to be returned to particular manufacturers. If a high end whistle maker has one whistle returned per 1000 good whistles, this would be much better than the maker who has one "dud" per 10 whistles.

Are some "high end" makers pedaling cr*p? I would have thought that all such makers are highly reputable or maybe I am naive.

Charlie
Charlie

[PhilO]

I understand Peter's point, because I also find myself being overly appreciative when I get just what I should and no more, in various types of products and services. That said, regarding whistles, I can only go by experience. I've had more problems with high end whistles than with cheapies, although mostly not recently. I'm not talking about playing characteristics, I'm referring to cracked wood, loose ferrules, badly fitted tuning slides, and voicing that is so poorly done that playing is near impossible in one of the octaves (I'm not talking about blowing notes into tune or getting used to breath requirements or even quirky breath control requirements). And Peter is right - it's a big pain in the ass to have to pack it back up and ship and insure it and be without the use of something you've already paid for.

That said, I think that once there is a negative occurrence, it's important how the maker responds - some can make it worse or not take pains to make the buyer happy after something occurs that is the maker's fault.

Wood is always riskier than metals and plastics and can crack or have hairline cracks that easily go undetected until you get it. Here's where, e.g., the heart and intent of the maker can come into play. Glenn Schultz acknowledged that hey sometimes wood cracks; so he started sending me bunches of whistles at a time to mess with for as long as I wanted until I picked out what I wanted and made sure there were no cracks. No, I did not take advantage and hold them for ages, I just played them for a short while and picked the one I wanted - how many makers will do that?

Never had a problem with any Abell, O'Riordan, Burke or Sindt. I have had a problem with two Copelands over a very long period of time - both were unplayable - one was so bad that it got tossed by Michael and a new one made and sent out. The other was re-voiced and that process was not fun, because it took so long to get it back. So yes, there are differences in the way people stand behind their products, and not because they're good or bad people, usually more because of personality.

Philo

[Jerry Freeman]

I think some of what's happening here is, making whistles isn't something you can study in school or learn from books and then if there's something you're not sure about, just look up the answer.

Though there are a few who've been through an apprenticeship of one kind or another (Paul Busman, with Glenn Schulz as mentor, Chris Abell I believe was trained as a winds instrument maker, Colin Goldie with Bernard Overton, etc.), making whistles is not well charted territory, and there's no clear path to expertise. Every whistle maker is something of a pioneer. It takes a certain amount of courage to open shop and offer one's handiwork to the public.

Best wishes,
Jerry

[crookedtune]

Or are we all missing the point? Is Peter saying, again, that a 'designer' whistle is an indulgence, and not required by an accomplished player?

Personally, I keep trying to like my Gens better. But what keeps happening is I keep wondering how good my role-models would have sounded with a better whistle.

Agreed, craftsmen should stand by their products. The whistle makers I know do.

[Cayden]

Or are we all missing the point? Is Peter saying, again, that a 'designer' whistle is an indulgence, and not required by an accomplished player?

No I am not.

Phil mentioned Copeland, I think I am safe mentioning him here as an example because he's out of business, and there have been quite numerous mentions of problematic whistles made by him in the past but there have been several other makers who have attracted at one time or another mention of dodgy features in their whistles (use search), the standard reaction to this has always been the one I mention: 'ah, sure isn't he great, he fix/revoice/retune/replace it'.

I rarely buy whistles untried, out of the four 'craftman-style ' makers I have dealt with two sent me a whistle I would not have bought had I tried it. No 'just send it back if it's a problem for you' will make me feel everything is dandy. Mind you both makers were decent and nice guys but some things just won't fly

I mean, I have a whistle sitting on the table here with a bottom note between twenty and thirty cents flat. It plays like a piper who fails to hit hard bottom D each and every time, something you can get away with some of the time if you're not too fussy but you certainly don't want to end on the note. Did the maker think I wouldn't notice? Didn't he notice himself? Are all his whistles like that? What's the story? It's great for playing Tom Billy's jigs but I like to play tunes in D as well some of the time and for that it's not quite suited.


So why does the forum in general think all's well if things go pear-shaped, what's at work there?. That I want to know. Well, maybe I just want you to think about it.

[crookedtune]

OK, I understand your point. The only reason I can offer up is that we support and encourage those with the courage to strike out on the whistle-making path. We feel kinship, and maybe cut them some slack occasionally. And I say occasionally, because I really don't think inferior whistles coming from good makers are a common occurrance.

[FJohnSharp]

So, let's try get to this (Jim is just about the only one who really tried to focus on the issue) why put a maker on a pedestal if he offers to fix a defect like bad tuning while in the process he is putting you through the hassle of sending stuff back, leaving you without your whistle in the meantime?

Well, we shouldn't. Why do we" Because it's easy to rail against the corporation and cut the little guy some slack. Is it right? No, but the small craftsman does more than make whistles. He also plays into the romantic notion of the olde days and artisanship and striving against the man. They are also people with faces and names and most people end to be more polite to people they can see and touch than they are to corporate entities. Not to mention the momentum the belief system this community holds regarding high end whistles vs. 'cheapies' tends to sway comments to the positive. Wait, I just mentioned it.

[Thomaston]

Well, in a world where customer support is outsourced, you can't get a correct order at the drive-through, and there's just a general lack of giving a crap everywhere you turn, maybe people are just grateful of a maker willing to take care of a problem. So what should ideally be expected everywhere actually looks like service that goes above and beyond.

[Cayden]

Well, we shouldn't. Why do we" Because it's easy to rail against the corporation and cut the little guy some slack. Is it right? No, but the small craftsman does more than make whistles. He also plays into the romantic notion of the olde days and artisanship and striving against the man. They are also people with faces and names and most people end to be more polite to people they can see and touch than they are to corporate entities. Not to mention the momentum the belief system this community holds regarding high end whistles vs. 'cheapies' tends to sway comments to the positive. Wait, I just mentioned it.

That's a fair notion.
A friend of mine makes the very top range of Uilleann pipes and I used to do the test driving/playing in before they were let go. I spent a lot of time around the workshop. Some customers can be troublesome, ignorant and a pain in the neck and it's always the maker who's to blame. So I don't envy makers who have to deal with that side of it all the time. In fact I have known several pipe-makers who gave up because of the customer hassle, I imagine it's not a lot different for whistle makers.

On the other hand, if I receive a whistle that plays out of tune I can feel it may be a slip but it may also make you feel uneasy about the regard the maker has for his customers, the 'did he really think I wouldn't notice', 'what did he take me for, a moron?' that sort of feeling. Because as Gary said above, it doesn't take much to give a whistle a run before it goes and maybe run it by a tuner.

I think being critical in a realistic way, giving feedback without necessarily tearing down or hassling the maker is a good way forward. It will certainly help keep a maker on his toes, more so than blathering on on the forums he makes 'perfect whistles' when he doesn't.

[Loren]

It's not a unique occurrence the same make of whistle has attracted quite a few of similar comments over time and so have other ones. Invariably a few posters come back to say : 'just send it back to your man, he's great to work with and he'll fix the problem for you. He will stand over his product'.

This has always puzzled me deeply...... so why does it never seem to occur to people that when you pay a fair amount of money to a maker of not mass produced instruments you should be able to expect an instrument that plays well and is in tune? I mean, why is it great customer service if you have to go through the hassle of going to the post-office send stuff half and whole continents away, be without the instrument you bought for weeks before you get it back in a condition it should have been in in the first place?

Indeed. And the same could be said regarding makers of instruments who consistently take people's money and then often don't ship the instruments in anything that could even be remotely considered a timely fashion, if ever, and yet you yourself go on supporting at least of of these publicly, which has always puzzled me deeply......






Loren

[Dale]

To try to stay with the original point, I think the only real question here is whether it's understandable and acceptable that an instrument maker occasionally sends out an instrument that a player would find flawed.

But, if someone's going to slip up occasionally and sell a flawed instruments, there are basically two responses that I've encountered. 1) I'm sorry about that, and I'll make it right or 2) there's nothing wrong with that instrument; what's wrong with you?

All that said, if a maker routinely sends out problem instruments, even a willingness to make it right doesn't exactly recommend the maker.

[Cayden]

Indeed. And the same could be said regarding makers of instruments who consistently take people's money and then often don't ship the instruments in anything that could even be remotely considered a timely fashion, if ever, and yet you yourself go on supporting at least of of these publicly, which has always puzzled me deeply......
Loren

You've lost me there