chin/shoulder method of holding the flute

crookedtune · Post by **crookedtune** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:05 am

lixnaw wrote:...the tip of my thong is touching my lower teeth, wich gives me a lot of confidence while playing.

Oh my!

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:12 am

Don't knock it till you've tried it.

A curious question about more or less standard
grip. Is your neck turned and if so, how much?
Let's talk about D flutes, if we may.

I find that I am definitely turning my head to
the left. If I try to face squarely forward
my right shoulder is thrown back a good deal,
uncomfortably so, though I can probably
work to make it more comfortable (stretching).

How are you folks doing this?

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:28 am

Jim, I very much doubt anyone using a classical style hold has their face squarely to the front. It certainly isn't part of the standard instructions to do so! Turned slightly to the left is normal, square to front is not, and except for briefly passing through such a position in looking around whilst playing, I don't do so, nor can I think of having seen anyone else do so.

As for the on-shoulder thing, you'll note I have carefully not criticised it per se. I don't know whether Conal O'Grada or Mike McGoldrick suffer any strains from doing it, though my recollection of seeing Conal play is that he doesn't actually keep it clamped there full time. It certainly doesn't seem detrimental to their playing! However, I'm with Michael Eskin in saying I would never encourage anyone to use it and would positively discourage anyone seeking my advice or tuition from doing it. As I said before, I actually cannot do it myself, save as a quick experiment.

I think it is possible to demonstrate to a person whom one has physically present to give instructions to that their windway and therefore their air-column and breath support are more open and easier to control with a less side-turned and more level posture of the head, and that that is more conducive to good tone; but clearly, the aforementioned stellar players who use it have no problems with tone production and support, even if they may have other problems. Like many such things, the fact that some virtuosi "break the rules" and get away with it or even benefit from so doing does not necessarily make it a good thing to copy or mean that we can all do so well with their method. They may be doing well in spite of what they are doing, and if one can show a less advanced player seeking guidance how they personally can optimise what they are doing by more "normal" techniques, surely that is preferable?

crookedtune · Post by **crookedtune** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:40 am

Also remember, it's not the positioning of the skeletal structure that causes the damage, it's the muscle tension required to maintain that positioning. If you can play with the flute on your shoulder and be relaxed, more power to you. I can't.

eskin · Post by **eskin** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:43 am

I hope that the pros that use the shoulder style continue to have good health and stay injury free... That some extremely accomplished players use this hold doesn't mean it should be emulated or encouraged.

I'm of the opinion, that whatever the instrument, it should be supported in a way that allows for maximum relaxation and comfort. Particularly if you want to repeatedly get through many hours of playing without incurring some sort of stress injury over time.

Here's how I hold a flute, what works for me may or may not work for you:

While seated, I turn my body slightly to the right, hold the flute in a standard classical sort of body position adapted for keyless flute, with the weight of the flute primarily supported by the thumbs under the instrument (I play flat fingered on both hands) and balanced by minimal pressure by the right pinky. I generally have a very slight bend forward at the waist. The flute goes where the hands would naturally take it, with some minor head motion down and rotation very slightly to the left to bring the whole thing together. Shoulders are relaxed. There is no strain, no effort, no pain, no gripping the flute, no pressing of the instrument to the face, its a stable platform with the arms, fingers, and body relaxed. The flute goes where the hands naturally would be when held up in a relaxed way. I have a three piece body flute so I'll rotate the sections as required to allow my wrists to have a continuous relaxed curve from my forearm.

It looks something like this (had to adapt a bit since I had to get the whole flute into the frame):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pupQyQBTcrQ

Guinness · Post by **Guinness** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:01 am

eskin wrote:One of my very accomplished flute playing friends who used the shoulder position nearly ended up requiring potentially dangerous major neck surgery as a result of the strain it put on his spine and almost had to give up the instrument. I'd certainly never play this way or recommend it to anyone.

And it was firmly established that it was his flute posture that caused the injury? Or did the posture simply exacerbate a preexisting condition?

I had neck problems for years playing flute the "normal way" or without even playing the flute at all. I found out by just dumb luck that changing my pillow to an ergonomic one (the one with a speed bump along the edge) made all the difference and now I rarely feel neck strain or pain.

The posture required for a Bb is even more challenging (shouldered or not), particularly if you have short arms. Yet no one is calling for a ban on those flutes.

lixnaw · Post by **lixnaw** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:03 am

crookedtune wrote:
lixnaw wrote:...the tip of my thong is touching my lower teeth, wich gives me a lot of confidence while playing.

Oh my!

What's so weird about this ? I'm only trying to help by explaining what works for me.

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:28 am

'Thong' = underwear (just about)! Perhaps you meant 'tongue'? Have we a slip in translation here?

lixnaw · Post by **lixnaw** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:33 am

jemtheflute wrote:'Thong' = underwear (just about)! Perhaps you meant 'tongue'? Have we a slip in translation here?

Oh my

Well maybe more people will take notice this way

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:18 am

I'm just not seeing "The Thong In My Teeth" as a tune title

"The Tooth Thong"?

"Thong Enchanted Tooth"?

"The Teeth In The Thong"? Ah, 'at's better

innit

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:39 pm

Denny, you always seem to be searching for things to get your teeth into! I must say, lixnaw's slip (

underwear too, geddit?) did conjure up the prospect of some curious contortions even if not trying to tootle a flootle simultaneously! It'd crack you up. Sufficient to cause one to sing The Knicker-elastic Blues, or Thong Thung Blue if lisping too........

I'll shut up now............

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:02 pm

the workings of the mind are strange.....well mine are....if it's working at all

I do like Thong Thung Blue

Tom Jones with a lisp....

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:11 pm

I knew a woman who tried to play with the
tip of her thong touching her lower teeth.
Not only was she horribly contorted (you can
hardly imagine!) but she
slipped and was maimed for life.

See what playing
with the flute on your shoulder leads to?
Ban it! Ban it I say!

Aanvil · Post by **Aanvil** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:17 pm

Thong hell.

I knew this gal that blew air from her diaphragm.

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:26 pm

So Cal