Teaching styles for groups

[fgibbons]

We're all familiar with a certain teaching technique popular in the Irish traditional music (ITM) world. Some call it The Circle of Death, and I'm sure there are other names for it. You know the one I mean: everyone sits in a circle, the teacher demonstrates something (a new technique, or a phrase of a tune), then has everyone in the circle repeat it, one at a time, to be critiqued.

For me, the main disadvantage of this method is that you spend most of the time listening to your classmates screw it up, when what you really need in order to learn, is to hear YOURSELF screw it up (then you can figure out how NOT to do that - that's learning). The larger the class size, the worse this effect becomes: with four, it's tolerable; but once it's over 7 or 8, it really gets bogged down.

I've been talking to a few people about this lately, and wondered what experiences people might have had of other techniques, perhaps outside the sphere of ITM. I don't care much for the Circle, and I know I'm not alone. Yet, when it comes to teaching, it's not obvious to me that there's a better way. If there are other ways, it's likely none of them is perfect, but perhaps some of them work better for large groups than the Circle. I'd love to hear about other people's experiences.

-Frank

[Uilliam]

Circles are time consuming and rather intimidating.If ye have a group of people better to give 5 or 10 minutes per individual awa frae the scrutiny of others and then they go aff and practice somewhere.The only limitation is finding somewhere with sufficient room for this.but most pipers can find a wee corner
This is how the London Pipers Club worked and worked it did...and it is how I prefer to teach and prefer to be taught coz there is always something to learn...
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam

[djones]

My only prior experience with music lessons was private instruction, one-on-one, before delving into UPs (piano and highland pipes). The group lesson "circle of death", as you call it, struck me immediately as terribly time consuming and inefficient. However, I have found there are classes that get pulled off well. (I am a teacher by trade, so method is something I'm interested in).

Even in classes where there is a wide gap in proficiency between students, skilled teachers (Brian McNamara comes to mind, but there are others) keep the time spent per student down while increasing the success rate of each by limiting the size of chunks taught at one time and by being able to quickly deduce WHY the student was making the error he was and offering a means to correct it. Proficient musicians who are not proficient teachers just attack this situation by repeating the target phrase until the student gets it or gives up with "I'll have to work on this later".

I have discovered I can benefit from watching my classmates as from the instructor. When he corrects a problem for my neighbor, he corrects a problem to which I may be vulnerable at some time while practicing. When I see 4 people execute it correctly, it reinforces the proper movements for me. Students should never feel like they are wasting their time waiting for their turn: there is much to learn from others.

The absolute worst classes I have had were with two well-liked pipe teachers (I'll omit their names out of respect). One spent so much time with 3 of us that the rest of the class had no chance to participate. The other instructor is methodically and methodologically useless. He spends a lot of time telling stories of the famous pipers he once knew or met. He distributes sheet music prepared in advance. He plays through it as a group (so if you cannot read music fluently, you're out). If the music he chose in advance does not fit the group's proficiency level, too bad (while the effective teacher will have the flexibility to adjust the tune or embellishment difficulty level to the group on the fly). After noting some interesting points on a few measures, you're off the tune and that's that. He half-heartedly invites questions and answers few. He rarely listens to any student actually play or offers constructive comments on it. They're terrible classes.

At the upper intermediate and lower advanced level, the best teachers are approaching issues of technique, expression and musicality rather than just teaching tunes. For example, Brian McNamara once brought out a phrase in a jig and we generated 8-9 different ways to express it. The worst teachers at this level are spending inordinant amounts of time on things like backstitching or a lot of time talking about playing.

I think an issue that remains unaddressed so far, and one which could be addressed in group lessons, is tone. I know instructors are afraid to touch anyone's reed, but lessons in pitch and balancing octaves and adjusting reeds really needs to start coming out in lessons right from the beginning classes (maybe there moreso). I know, there are always reed making classes, but reedmaking could meet music more directly.

I would also repeat an opinion I have expressed here before that self-assignment of classes is probably not the best bet. Modern technology allows most people to submit a recording to the organizers. Agreed, it's a lot of extra work to have people listen to and judge some 50 recordings, but perhaps the "juice would be worth the squeeze". Or, a grading system could be developed of some sort, perhaps not based on the GHB competitive model but in which students get some time with individual insstructors at the end of a Tionol to have a listen and mark a current-performing-level on a chart or something. Such a proposal entails increased work, however I think it would be worth it.

[PJ]

The circle is not ideal but it's the only practical solution, like when you have 20 pipers of varying skill levels, one teacher and a limited amount of time.

Don't forget, teaching is tiring work and it's not particularly well paid. If you get a tionol that lasts a weekend and you have one "star" piper giving classes, you can't reasonably ask that piper to teach more than 3 hours per day AND play a concert. He/she would be exhausted.

One thing you can do in the circle is to practice the fingering without putting air through your chanter while everyone else is taking their turn. Listen for the mistakes the others are making and avoid making them yourself. The challenge is to try find new mistakes to make!!

[Uilliam]

The circle is not ideal but it's the only practical solution, like when you have 20 pipers of varying skill levels, one teacher and a limited amount of time.

The circle is not the only practical solution and if ye have 20 in a class of various ability it is doomed afore ye start.The circle in my opinion is the very last resort.
Uilliam

[PJ]

Uilliam - With respect, you're in an entirely different situation. You've got a good number of pipers within an hour or two's drive, not to mention a master piper or two. Plus, you've got access to Comhaltas. All this gives you great access. Outside of certain well noted centres of piping in North America, most of us have to travel far for instruction, most of which is limited to weekend festivals. The Chris Langan Weekend, East Coast Tionol and Killington Pipers Gathering are the only three within 12 hours drive of where I live. The formula for such weekends is morning and afternoon 1-hour group classes with the opportunity (at extra cost) for a 1-hour private class if you book early.

I don't particularly like the circle method, but when it's all you've got available, you make the best of it.

If you can come up with suggestions for a viable alternative (by which I mean students would be willing to pay for it and instructors would be happy with the pay they receive) to the circle method, let's hear it.

[misterpatrick]

Another method that I've come to enjoy is what some refer to as Jimmy's Fiery Circle of Death (The JOBMCoFD). This variation has each participant playing a tune of their choosing all while the aforementioned Jimmy furiously scribbles in his little black book - "Oh god, what's he writing, he's going to tell me to take up the concertina isn't he"!

After everyone in the circle has played their tune, Jimmy goes around the circle and spends time with each student deconstructing their tune and playing technique. This usually doesn't result in tears.

While this musical depantsing is very humbling, it is also extremely valuable as everyone in the circle learns something that is specific to their playing.

-Patrick

[CHasR]

I've been talking to a few people about this lately, and wondered what experiences people might have had of other techniques, perhaps outside the sphere of ITM. I don't care much for the Circle, and I know I'm not alone. Yet, when it comes to teaching, it's not obvious to me that there's a better way. If there are other ways, it's likely none of them is perfect, but perhaps some of them work better for large groups than the Circle. I'd love to hear about other people's experiences.

-Frank

what's even more frustrating than the circle is having vastly different musical approaches by consecutive teachers:
One's open and into heavy graces,
One's closed, and tight as tight can be,
Still another is encouraging, yet ambivalent to what you're doing,
etc.
Not that any of this is inherently wrong,
on its own,

Either one can assimilate what's on offer into their playing,
Or, one can become entirely lost in a sea of vague uilleann-ness and never truly coalesce.

What id' like to see is for anyone who's doing the teaching rounds to send out a songlist, or put tunes up on their website, (beginner, int, adv),
(not a lot of work, once or twice a year is sufficent, imo,)

and a wee blurb about what their planned approach is,

so that whoever's attending can do some prep work on their own,
and the instructor dosent have to go from ground zero with every class.

wot sez all?

[Uilliam]

PJ I thought I had given ye an alternative to circles.
Whilst I have some sympathy for ye(not much mind ye )smaller groups is best.Say max of 10 .
Tutor outlines objective of the lesson in 1st 5mins then there is one to one for 10mins per person going through this lesson.The student then fecks aff to practice, they will soon be joined by others no doubt, who may be quicker on the uptake, so they can work and consolidate together. The group reconvenes at the end for 15 mins, for group consolidation.
Bingo 2 hours of effective work.
If ye have larger groups then ye have to have very clear realistic objectives as a tutor.Possibly a demonstration and let the students get on wi it and the tutor monitors the work.
Not easy as everyone going to the class would expect the personal touch, but as they would all be at different levels that just aint possible.
With large classes ye would need more than one tutor obviously,to bring it down to workable numbers, but not everyone is ready, or wants a masterclass at tionals... Ye have to work realistically within your given budget and not expect Nirvana for Nuts,:boggle: ,
there it is, the alternative in a nutshell...

I take back whit I said earlier aboot having sympathy for ye..I have none at all.
Having other pipers around isnae the be all and end all as I know of only a few who are prepared to share and enjoy the piping as opposed to some I have come across recently who are only intent on being the virtuoso(or so they think) and Comhaltas has done feck all to promote piping other than in infuriatingly myopic competitions which do nothing for piping or pipers.Ye must think that I sit surrounded by Rowesomes Enniss's Clancys et all... well I don't.Admittedly I do have a friend in Pat McNulty but that is my good fortune and I have a link wi the past through him.
Judging frae the authoritive posts that are coming frae your side of the pond I imagine that working in the wilderness wi just the wee beasties fer company is having a miraculous effect on the world o piping...

Peace and all that to ye all
Slán Agat
Uilliam

[simonknight]

Circles are time consuming and rather intimidating.If ye have a group of people better to give 5 or 10 minutes per individual awa frae the scrutiny of others and then they go aff and practice somewhere.The only limitation is finding somewhere with sufficient room for this.but most pipers can find a wee corner
This is how the London Pipers Club worked and worked it did...and it is how I prefer to teach and prefer to be taught coz there is always something to learn...
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam

I'm with Uilliam.

When I first attended a group session, I found it pretty nerve racking and not the best environment to learn a tune. Nor did I get some fundamental problems with my set or technique addressed.

As I progressed, I learned a lot in these kind of sessions, but have always found a 1 on 1 lesson hugely more effective. Now, if I want to learn a tune, I can listen to a CD on my own - I'm more interested in a critique of my playing and addressing problems specific to me.

The group sessions that have worked the best haven't followed a particular pattern, but have seemed more to do with the personality and communication skills of the teacher. It's certainly better when the experience level of the group is more evenly matched, nevertheless I've seen Jerry O'Sullivan deal with mixed ability groups well.

It's fun to get together with other pipers, but I think the reliance on this method does hold us back.

[Mike Hulme]

I broadly agree with Uilliam on this one as well. Even 10 players in a group teach in would only get a maximum of 6 minutes per hour each. This also assumes that all pipes are working well from the outset. I do not think that mixed ability classes work at all, even at low levels of ability. In the classical world I have sat in and listened at a few master classes, and given that the majority of the listeners are on a par with the individual being taught, therefore singing from the same hymm sheet, the level of benefit each one receives would be far higher than that gained by someone "out of their depth".

However individual tuition is costly, and given relatively low numbers of pipe teachers in convenient locations there has to be a compromise. The advent of internet webcam teaching might be a solution; does anyone have any feedback on how this works for them?

[Patrick D'Arcy]

Short bursts of information such as 10 or 15 minutes are ideal absolutely. But does anyone agree that it might be hard to sell this ideal to people expecting the usual entire day in the ring of fire? They may be getting better quality tuition with the shorter method but as we all know.... us pipers do like a buffet Do you think they would still be willing to pay full fare?

I have been using the "Circle of Death" in a one-on-one method for intermediate and advanced classes. What I do though is have people play a tune and suggest techniques or changes that might bring the tune to life a bit more. It was these classes I feel I learned the most from.

Pat.

PS - Great topic!

[updated to add the last paragraph]

[Uilliam]

Thats what Mick Coyne did one year in Milltown for a masterclass, except he asked each of us to play a tune that we were very familiar with then go aff find a wee corner and he then came to each of us in turn and gave hints on how to improve that tune.
At the end we went back into the ring and each played the tune again.What a difference.Very informative very entertaining.(mind ye some sounded better the 1st time around )
There was also the advantage that those not actually engaged in the tune of their choice could learn bits and tricks frae the other tunes being played by their fellow guinea pigs when they heard them..this was good for after class practice wi each other and also allowed the pupils to give each other something and must have helped their confidence and all that shiite

Now if ye have a big mixed class in a circle at a Tional all doing the same stuff, then someone is gonna be dissapointed.Be it the newbie or the advanced player.Stands to reason.The class cant be all things to all.
So going to a Tional with that expectation is daft.
Better to be realistic in what the aims of the class is gonna be.
That means of course that the tutor has to think a bit about what he is gonna get paid for.
Unfortunately many so called tutors think that giving a sheet of paper(if your lucky) wi a completely new tune to learn as well as learning techniques in a crowd of peers who will be judging ye(make no mistake aboot that one )is sufficient for a lesson.Wrang.
Frae the outset if ye can't engage wi the tune then wot?As ye know some tunes sit better in the individual mind than others thats why we play what we like...not what we don't like or even hate.
I have seen far more constructive work done outside the class amongst the pupils themselves helping each other than sometimes a whole morning spent inside a class with the fear of cock up grip and your turn slowly ever so slowly coming around like the grim reaper.Bit dramatic that, but thats wot it feels like for some I am sure.
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam

[TheSilverSpear]

I've never been in a class were the teacher's used the method Liam described, but it seems like a much less traumatic method than the Circle of Death. In my experience the Circle of Death fosters more competition and less communitarianism amongst the pupils in the class. You feel you need to pick up the tune or technique quickly or your fellow students will judge you, thinking you're incompetent, or at least not as good as they are. If some of the other people in the Circle get it quickly, you start imagining that the teacher will also think you're incompetent when you fall on your face. As the circle comes around to you, you think, "Oh, God, I am going to screw this up royally!" Then of course, you do screw it up. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It's very strange, actually. I totally lose the ability to learn anything by ear. Normally I can pick up things no bother, being played over iTunes, being played by other instruments, and off pipes which is easy since each note has such a distinctive tone. But in a piping class, my brain ceases to be able to process sounds into notes on the chanter. Has anyone else experienced this?

[Uilliam]

Has anyone else experienced this?

Silverspear if they haven't then they obviously havenae been to a piping class.What ye described is I would imagine the case with 99.9% of attendees at some point or other..
Folk in the piping community are so set in their ways that if'n ye dare suggest that maybe the teaching method needs to be looked at in some cases, then the world will fall apart,it won't mind ye but that doesna seem to matter.We will just carry on as we have always done because someone once thought that was a good idea.
I remember one extreme case one year at Miltown where the pupil for the whole week just went into the class with his tape recorder and when asked he said that he would practice later.That is taking it too far and I think the tutor was wrang just to pretend he wasnae there...
anyaways happy pipering and enjoy yer Tionals
Uilliam