Where to breathe in Mooncoin?

Akiba · Post by **Akiba** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:45 am

I'm learning Mooncoin. Great tune, but it's a non-stop double jig and I'm wondering where are the best places to breathe. My setting follows this one pretty closely

http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/206.

I sometimes snatch breaths after the first note of beginning 4 bar phrases. Also, I could breathe by breaking up the dotted quarter notes but I like to play rolls there which I don't want to omit if possible (but will probably have to anyways).

What do you'all think? Where would you breathe?

Jason

Craig Stuntz · Post by **Craig Stuntz** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:08 am

My teacher gave me a great tip about how to learn where to breathe: Learn the tune with a breath in every measure. Then you'll be able to take a breath whenever you need one, and you won't always do it in the same places, which makes the tune sound repetitive.

s1m0n · Post by **s1m0n** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:27 am

Craig Stuntz wrote:My teacher gave me a great tip about how to learn where to breathe: Learn the tune with a breath in every measure. Then you'll be able to take a breath whenever you need one, and you won't always do it in the same places, which makes the tune sound repetitive.

Great idea. Learn to do that without losing time and you'll never have to think about breathing again. Try playing every measure in time, once as written and then again with a breath. When you you can switch smoothly from one to the other without losing the beat, go on to the next--practice it just like learning a roll*, or any other variation. You'll find the same patterns recurring over and over before you finish doing this with even one tune, and that's going to equip you to breathe smoothly any time you need to in any tune with the same meter.

* You can probably already vary between playing g-a-g and g(roll) at the appropriate part of a bar, or you'll soon learn how. Breathing uses the same kind of substitution; think of it as one more way to add variety or emphasis. For instance, g(breath)g is as much a way to add rhythmic variation and lift within the frame of the tune as any roll.

fyffer · Post by **fyffer** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:36 am

Akiba · Post by **Akiba** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:45 am

great suggestions from all and an interesting exercise to figure where to breathe in all measures, though it seems some phrases would be butchered in some bars no matter where the breath. I will definitely use your idea, fyffer--tried it and like it as one option.

eilam · Post by **eilam** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:28 pm

great tune !!!

have not played it in years.....

sometimes, i learn a new tune on the whistle, get it to where i know it enough to know how i want it to sound, as far as phrasing and rhythmically.............then, when i move to the flute, i already know how i want it to sound, and the breath stops fall into place more naturally.
with moonshine jig, i think it was such a long tune that many times i just played it on the whistle............also, i think at one point i got a CD by Wild Asparagus that had moonshine on it, but was kind of disappointed by how they played it......

sbfluter · Post by **sbfluter** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:04 pm

Usually the middle note in any jiglet is fair game for a breath in my book. Not always, but that's where I look.

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:25 am

I thought the best way to try to contribute to this thread might be to have a bash at the tune and post a clip. I haven't played The Mooncoin in many years and never really learnt it properly, so I wouldn't claim to "have it" - it probably shows in the clip! I had to play from the dots and it is a bit jerky - hasn't got the flow I'd like, plus there isn't really any variation. But hey, it's not meant to be a performance in this context, just an exploration of the technical issue in question, so maybe a fresh approach to it is actually best here? Anyway, I certainly see (have been reminded!) what folks mean about it requiring a lot of sustaining breathwise and not readily proffering breathing slots. It sure isn't a tune for a beginner, not because it's difficult under the fingers (it's not) but because of the breath sustain required to play it well.

I tried not to think about it too much, just to play it over a few times and then record it once I'd settled into a natural pattern of sorts. I think I've found a way to deal with it, or at least, various possibilities. I seem mostly to breathe on the bar-line every 4th & 8th bars (at phrase ends) taking a fraction of time out of the last note those bars, but I also did various other things at times, and the possibilities are different in each section. It's nice at least some of the time to link the phrases across the fourth and double bars, but as this particular tune doesn't have an emphasised up-beat to its phrases (emphasis both rhythmic and melodic is on the first beat in the phrase), breathing on those barlines is not (IMO)awkward/"wrong" as it can be in some tunes. Have a listen and see if it helps/works for you......

The Mooncoin (1st take, with dots)

FOLLOW UP: Mmmmmm. Having written the above, I picked up my flute and just played through the tune, away from the dots now, having "got it" in my head again - and came up with a rather different result! Now mostly breathing before up-beats, despite what I said before. Interesting! I think the flow is rather better now too. So, I haven't taken down the first shot, but have added this 2nd take The Mooncoin (2nd take, without dots) ....... if only as an illustration of how these things can develop and maybe that they work best away from the dots. If you're learning from dots you have to make initial decisions about these things, and if you learn by ear you'll probably copy your source (which can give good or bad habits without benefit of having to consider the possibilities up front), but when you move away from dots or aural source, you start to "go native" with a tune and (hopefully!) actually play it!

I hope there's something useful in here somewhere!

Flutered · Post by **Flutered** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:16 am

I learnt this tune from Ann Conroy on the box at a summer festival a few years ago. Fantastic tune when it's played well but not so easy of flute or even whistle I think - the last part where it jumps octaves is hard to play convincingly. For breathing, I often breath on Bcd run, drop middle note or ditto for the cde in 2nd part, afd or bge etc. Saw Mary Bergin play this as a showpiece on the Gradam Ceoil awards 2-3 years ago.

Cathy Wilde · Post by **Cathy Wilde** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:04 pm

Love this tune, but it sure seems it was originally one for the fiddle! Donegal, right? Anyway, we put it in a set after Taither Jack Walsh and the Monk's Jig; makes a nice progression.

I drop the c in the Bcd run like flutered. My other favorite clean places to drop a note are the cde runs; I leave out the d. Finally, in a pinch I'll also do a short roll on an E and snatch a breath from the back end of what's ordinarily a treble or dotted (long-rolled) note.

Meanwhile, here are some other options for breathing -- I've indicated the dropped notes to be replaced by breaths with {brackets}, thus turning the dropped notes into what should show up as grace notes in an abc translator.

Some of these options are MUCH better than others, but sometimes you just gotta breathe (especially if you're playing with banjo players and fiddles who like to speed up on this tune!!!!

), so it's good to have a backup plan.

HOWEVER, I would NOT recommend using them all because 1) the tune will sound like chopped chud, and 2) you'll likely hyperventilate!

X: 1
T: Mooncoin, The
M: 6/8
L: 1/8
R: jig
K: Amix
ed|:c{B}A AEA|AEA Bcd|cBA ~A{c}e|dBG B{c}d|
|c{B}A AEA|AEA Bcd|Ace ~g3|d{B}G Bcd:|
|:c{d}e efg|f/g/af ged|c{d}e ~e3|faA B{c}d|
c{d}e~e2|afd bge|a{f}d gec|dBG B{c}d:|
|:cBA Aaf|e{c}A Bcd|cBA ~g3|d{B}G Bcd|
|c{B}A Aaa|Agg A{f}f|Aee efg|dBG Bcd:|

Akiba · Post by **Akiba** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:21 pm

Wow, Jem and Cathy, thanks so much for all the work you've put in to this. Jem, my apologies, I have yet to listen to your clips because I'm sitting here with a dial-up connection and your clips are multiple megabytes (can you say "phone line tied up for one hour downloading"?). But I surely will as soon as I have the connection to do so.

This is, IMHO, a great discussion about something so fundamental to flute playing in general and Irish flute playing in particular: breathing/breaths. I'm still stuck in the classical frame of mind of taking as few a breaths as possible and avoiding altering a phrase. But I think I need to look for areas to take breaths closer together (as I hear Matt Molloy do on many tunes) in order to be sure I always have enough wind, and not be at all stressed or struggling to finish the phrase and then take a breath.

Anyways, thanks to all; good stuff. Am working on putting it to use.

Cheers,

Jason

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:34 am

You're welcome, Jason. Good luck with the downloads in due course! (Afraid I tend to forget about dial-up download issues as I only started using computers in the broadband era!). I'll be interested in your reactions/thoughts about what I came up with, and the process that became evident - and anyone else's too. I'd also be glad to know if my clips are actually helpful - to know if it is worth me making such responses in similar situations or whether I'm just dangling my doodles.
Cheers!
Jem.

Cathy Wilde · Post by **Cathy Wilde** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:24 am

Hope it helps! And I'm going to trust your good taste to only use some of those spots if absolutely necessary; they're kind of tacky

... but I've found that it doesn't hurt to plan for contingencies, especially when playing out where things gang aft a gley.

It is one of the harder tunes for breathing, I think; right up there with its sister Gusty's Frolics. The Monaghan's another though I can't blame that one on the region .... Maybe it's a fiddley thing.

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:00 am

Cathy Wilde wrote:It is one of the harder tunes for breathing, I think; right up there with its sister Gusty's Frolics. The Monaghan's another though I can't blame that one on the region .... Maybe it's a fiddley thing.

Don't think I know Gusty's Frolics (if I do, its by another name or I don't know I know it and just join in at sessions!), but I don't agree with you about The Monaghan, Cathy - I know it well and have never noticed any problem with breathing in it - haven't even thought about it! I've posted a clip of it somewhere fairly recently......... Ah, HERE.

Cathy Wilde · Post by **Cathy Wilde** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:11 am