Uilleann Whisitle? The Right Practice Set?

[NedoftheForest]

I’m a former GHB player (some might say reformed, as I am now learning the whistle). I’ve been keen on the UP form many years but I’ve had too many good reasons to not take on the instrument myself, such as not having access to a teacher and not liking a lot of reed maintenance. (One of my favorite stories is the Pipe Major who responded to rumors about his engagement to be married with “Heavens no, I have enough trouble with my reeds!”)

I’ve been perusing the UP forums for a few months now and it seems that there is new technology these days that offers some solutions, such as Daye’s Penny Chanter, webcast instruction, and well prepared tutorials on CD.

I must say I have been impressed with the kind support and advice being offered by experienced players on this forum. As such, I feel the community will be patient with me as I ask another barrage of naïve questions only a neophyte would ask.

The Uilleann Whistle from Song of the Sea? I know it’s keyed in A and that drone attachment is rather ridiculous, but would the whistle itself be helpful in learning proper fingering? That was the nice thing about the GHB practice chanter. Although it is a giant leap to the pipes, the practice chanter could be whipped out and “played” just about anywhere or anytime you found yourself with a spare 10 or 15 minutes.

My research has also given me the impression that Daye’s penny chanter and reed making techniques have added a new dimension of ease and stability for uilleann beginners. I have narrowed my choice of a practice set to Daye or Sky’s budget set. I lean towards Daye because I’m thinking a wood chanter will less forgiving to the inexperienced. I would appreciate comments from beginning and experienced players.

Thanks to everyone.

Jim

[PJ]

The Uilleann Whistle from Song of the Sea? I know it’s keyed in A and that drone attachment is rather ridiculous, but would the whistle itself be helpful in learning proper fingering? That was the nice thing about the GHB practice chanter. Although it is a giant leap to the pipes, the practice chanter could be whipped out and “played” just about anywhere or anytime you found yourself with a spare 10 or 15 minutes.

The general concensus is that uilleann whistles and similar mouth-blown products are useless. The approach to learning uilleann pipes differs greatly from the approach to learning GBH. Most uilleann pipers learn firstly to control bagpressure and coordinate bellows pumping. Then they go on to learning notes and scales (fingering). You're better off by-passing uilleann whistles and investing your money in a good practice set of uilleann pipes (bellows, bag and chanter) from a reputable maker.

My research has also given me the impression that Daye’s penny chanter and reed making techniques have added a new dimension of ease and stability for uilleann beginners. I have narrowed my choice of a practice set to Daye or Sky’s budget set. I lean towards Daye because I’m thinking a wood chanter will less forgiving to the inexperienced. I would appreciate comments from beginning and experienced players.

There's nothing particularly new about David Daye's reeds. His innovation is in the use of materials for his chanter. For a beginner, there's no real difference between a Daye chanter and a chanter by any other maker (other than cost - it's cheaper). I've played 2 or 3 Daye chanters and they were ideal for a beginner. I wouldn't see any advantage of a Daye chanter over a wooden chanter. I don't know why you think it would be more forgiving. In any case, if your choice is between Daye and Sky you're not going to go wrong. Both are reputable makers.

I must say I have been impressed with the kind support and advice being offered by experienced players on this forum. As such, I feel the community will be patient with me as I ask another barrage of naïve questions only a neophyte would ask.

Stick around.

[magroibin]

I must say I have been impressed with the kind support and advice being offered by experienced players on this forum.
The Uilleann Whistle from Song of the Sea? I know it’s keyed in A and that drone attachment is rather ridiculous, but would the whistle itself be helpful in learning proper fingering? That was the nice thing about the GHB practice chanter.
I have narrowed my choice of a practice set to Daye or Sky’s budget set.
Jim

I must say that I am impressed with the reading you have done before asking for advice! You set a higher standard for newbies to the forum. Welcome.

You are leaning in the right direction with either the Daye or Sky budget set.

The Uilleann Whistle has never had "rave reviews". It seems it was designed just to part unsuspecting GHB'ers from their money.

The tin whistle's fingering is very similar to the UP in most respects and is the "practise chanter" of choice for many (including myself).

Good luck with your purchase. Sounds like your off to a great start.

Paul

[PJ]

The tin whistle's fingering is very similar to the UP in most respects and is the "practise chanter" of choice for many (including myself).

Good point. $10 for a Generation or Feadog in D is a good investment.

[4.0fig]

I have to agree with PJ. As a newbie to the pipes, I am spending most of my time learning to control the bellows and bag and trying to sound a solid note with the bag, not the bellows. I am not even worried about scales yet until I get the bag/bellows coordination down.

By the way, I bought a Pat Sky practice set and I am happy with it.

[Uilliam]

If'n ye treat a penny whistle as a practice chanter then I wonder what yer playing of the Uilleann Pipe Chanter will be like?.
The fingering is different, similar, but different nonetheless..
The only way to practice is on a real chanter.
As for the whistle chanter thingymaboab ye obviously havnae read enough if ye are even considering this piece o nonesense...
ye could stick some drones in your ears and regulators in any other orifice o your choice and pretend that ye are progressing in pipes...
pretence that is all that is being discussed here.Substitutes will never do
Uilleann Piping is aboot an attitude of mind just as much as having the real thing in yer mits.Statements such as your.".I’ve been keen on the UP form many years but I’ve had too many good reasons to not take on the instrument myself, such as not having access to a teacher and not liking a lot of reed maintenance. "would indicate to me a lack o real passion for the instrument.Neither reason ye gave holds any water wi me...
Get the real thing and get on wi it an stop wasting any more feckin time wi a this blather.
Slán Agat
Uilliam
ps 4.0fig wrote...
" I have to agree with PJ. As a newbie to the pipes, I am spending most of my time learning to control the bellows and bag and trying to sound a solid note with the bag, not the bellows. I am not even worried about scales yet until I get the bag/bellows coordination down. ....."


Which of course will be greatly enhanced by practicising on yer penny whistle

[IainMcLean]

I completely understand what NedofTheForrest wants. Having myself spent years on GHB's and quite a fair amount of that time playing at the top levels in G1 bands and teaching folk I know the way GHB pipers rely on their practice chanter. I play it whenever the moment arises - when my PC is loading slowly, an route to band practice stuck in traffic... when there's sh*t on telly... and that way my fingers get a good work out and the music becomes muscle memory a lot quicker.

In that way once your fingers know the tune you can begin to craft the expression to your tastes full of the knowledge of what's next in the tune when you're playing it. It's this level of practice that allows top flight GHB played to seemingly play excellent tunes when having had a few bevies. Their fingers do the work, not their minds.

I know that I bought the whistle chanter and don't use it much as it's not that bloody good... but I would love to see a mouth-blown chanter for uilleann pipes. If someone developed one I am sure that a lot more GHB players would make the transition as they already have the bag and more often the bellows technique (a lot play SSP's now as well) and their regimented finger technique is easily transfered across to UP's. The only thing left is the lack of practice chanter....

As far as regulators go... obviously that's a learn it while you play it thing. but if the GHB player on UP's was given a real UP practice chanter things would be far easier for him. Her. it.

I know a lot of the UP players out there are growing interested in composite drone reeds - the GHB world has been playing them for nearly 20 years in some cases. If it's innovation you're after why not some reputable maker have a bash at making a nice plastic chanter reed, slipping a cover over a chanter and screwing on a stock mouthpiece available from any GHB store for $5? I know I'd buy one!

[Uilliam]

What a loada bollax...Reminds me o the time when I used to be wi the London Irish Pipers Club and a newby numpty came in and enquired if it were possible to have an electric pump to inflate the bag...of course it is but why would ye want to reinvent the wheel.
Same wi the practice chanter.
For the short time that it takes to master the fingering technique I and I suspect generations of my peers used whatever was to hand to get the fingers used to muscle memory.For example ye could use the time standing in the subway holding a passenger bar.Sitting down wi a rolled up newspaper holding a Bb whistle in order to get used to the stretch.
Not once did I blow a whistle or even want to.I was concentrating on Uilleann Pipes not fecking penny whistles or for that matter GHB.
What is it wi ye GHBrs that think by mentioning the fact that ye have been playing them for umpteen years at whatever grade yer at that somehow as if by magic the UPs will fall into your laps and ye will play as if'n ye have been touched by the Sídhe.
Fact is most o ye will have to unlearn a lot o your heelan techniques if'n ye want to sound like Uilleann pipers and not GHBrs transferring their noise to the UPs.That is if ye can forget for a moment that ye are Heelan Pipers.
Peace and love to ya all
Uilliam

[BigDavy]

There is of course this, but it is not 5 bucks

http://www.oworlds.zoovy.com/product/UI ... anter.html

David

[IainMcLean]

Did I just get touched by the wrath? Oh, my goodness! What in the world??! Hey, all I did was put forward a view point on a forum, that's what forums are for isn't it? No need to get so defensive. Music is about sharing, fundamentally, isn't it? Isn't that what a performer does with an audience? Shares? I wanted to share my thoughts.
If you want to talk about wheels, pal, bagpipes of all natures have been evolving for thousands of years. They probably will continue to do so, this is the nature of man, to find something that works, explore it then replicate then evolve it. Saying it should remain so as that's how it's always been is complete utter tosh.
I was merely commenting on how I could see a way to make the transition from GHB to UP more appealing for GHB players. I'm sure that both sides of the debate could learn a thing or two from each other and make their lives a whole lot easier in the process.
On another note, what's the deal with the Up / GHB divide that goes on?

The part I was talking about it this:
http://www.thomsonbagpipes.com/itemprof ... ?ItemID=29
put on top of a turned wooden cap for the chanter.

[PJ]

... I suspect generations of my peers used whatever was to hand to get the fingers used to muscle memory ...

Are you suggesting that we're just a bunch of glorified w@nker$?

[BigDavy]

... I suspect generations of my peers used whatever was to hand to get the fingers used to muscle memory ...

Are you suggesting that we're just a bunch of glorified w@nker$?

I thought we were!!!!

David

[billh]

Did I just get touched by the wrath? Oh, my goodness! What in the world??! ...
I was merely commenting on how I could see a way to make the transition from GHB to UP more appealing for GHB players. ...

I wouldn't be quite as unrestrained as 'liam about it... but I happen to agree with his sentiments. That's not IMO unfriendly in and of itself.

I've taught more than one former GHB player beginning UP, and I think the most important thing to "make the transition from GHB to UP" easier can be simply put: forget everything you know about GHB.

I will make only the disclaimer that I myself never seriously tried to play the GHB - but what little I do know about the píob mór suggests that they are totally different in multiple key respects. There's lots to unlearn, this much is for sure - not just trivial stuff like fingering differences, but the whole approach to bag pressure, ornamentation, and articulation is different. It is usually apparent when a former GHB player plays uilleann/union pipes without having fully internalized these differences.

On another note, what's the deal with the Up / GHB divide that goes on?

I think that if there is a perception of a "divide", at least on the part of experienced UP players, it's because of the number of GHB players who haven't fully clued in to the differences in the instrument, and/or who choose to approach the uilleann and union pipes from a GHB perspective. It's fine if you make that choice, of course...but it should then be no surprise if other folks choose not to embrace it.

The part I was talking about it this:
http://www.thomsonbagpipes.com/itemprof ... ?ItemID=29
put on top of a turned wooden cap for the chanter.

There's no way this will ever work acceptably, for more reasons that I care to list here... to give only a couple of examples: mouthblowing is incompatible with the second octave, posture will be inappropriate, etc. I'm reasonably sure that as you study the matter further you will come to agree.

I am told that the traditional 'practice' tool was a stick with 8 dots painted onto it, which the prospective learner would use to practice finger movements and scales; when those, plus tune lilting, had been satisfactorily mastered, a bag, bellows and chanter would be procured. In previous times there were (again I am told) plenty of pipers who used to practice this way silently, much the same way that a GHB player might use a 'practice chanter' to actually practice when it doesn't suit to pull out the pipes themselves.

Best regards,

Bill

[Uilliam]

... I suspect generations of my peers used whatever was to hand to get the fingers used to muscle memory ...

Are you suggesting that we're just a bunch of glorified w@nker$?

ye got me there PJ but o course the thought ne'er entered ma heed.

Iain I didna think I was being at all defensive rather the opposite I would say.
I have no intention to discuss wheels , the nature o man ,be ye pal o mine or no, or how to make life appealing or otherwise for GHBrs,why should I?
I did not say that things should remain static for ever did I? so why invent thoughts for me?
Don't ye think that if your idea was such a boon then it would have been thought of a long time ago?
The way I learned was the way most folk learned. It was tried and tested and guess wot,it works. and it costs nothing
As for this being a Forum I am well aware o that, thank ye for yer concern..
Surely if'n ye put something up for discussion(as ye have) then views will flow, pro and con(as they have) so what is yer point.?
Tis yersel who seems to be on the defensive....calm down...
On the divide that goes on I think it comes more frae the GHB side o'er here and I presume it must be the same on the other side o the pond.A lot of folk think that the UPs are easier to play than GHbs and because we don't follow a militaristic mantra or have grades etc then somehow we are inferior.A thought which makes me smile because I follow the simple rule that what ye think o me is none o my business.
The only thing I can agree wi ye is on.. yes Ye have been touched .. Peace and love to ya all
Slán Agat
Uilliam

[NedoftheForest]

I think this where I step in and say “Can’t we all just all get along?” It was certainly not my intention to start a controversial topic.

I appreciate everyone’s advice, especially yours Uilliam. At first, you blew my ears back. But I think that underneath that abrasive outer shell is a kind heart that is passionate about the uilleann pipes. The fact that you took the time to respond to my “blather” shows you care. Your advice to “Get the real thing and get on wi it” is the best I could ask for. I’ll end my final post on this subject the same as you end yours …Peace and Love to You All.