tizzie

selkie · Post by **selkie** » Mon Dec 02, 2002 6:26 pm

What does a sideways looking s mean over a note please? I would type it but can't find it on my keyboard. It's like this ~

avanutria · Post by **avanutria** » Mon Dec 02, 2002 6:28 pm

I've seen that in some sheet music and interpret it as a note to be rolled, but I'm not sure.

Wandering_Whistler · Post by **Wandering_Whistler** » Mon Dec 02, 2002 7:09 pm

Whenever I've seen that, it's meant a rolled note. Whether you do a short roll or a long roll is determined by the kind of note it's over.

selkie · Post by **selkie** » Mon Dec 02, 2002 7:22 pm

Thanks a lot.

Zubivka · Post by **Zubivka** » Tue Dec 03, 2002 7:12 am

The sign is called a “gruppetto to us latin do-re-mi-fa-sol users.
Watch out, it comes in two forms :

a) like a ~ (tilde) curving up-down
b) like a ~ (tilde) in mirror-image curving down-up.

Being a common ornamentation, it comes in three basic forms. You could use to signify a (short) roll, but here are the classic uses which mostly differ quite a bit.

Thanks for posting the question, sinced it forced me to get back to the basics... If I can compile it for you, and you understand, then its fine. If you didnt understand, then I learnt it poorly, and should get back to it once again

They are convenient for avoiding to clutter the stave with small thin grace notes, and also because you can handwrite over the notes of a printed score.

The examples Ill show will be supposed in C scale, for ease of typing. The long stressed notes are capitals boldfaced.

1) Gruppetto marked over a note

Play an ornamental triplet (cut-note-tap) before the written note, as fast as possible (since time is taken away from this main note), the written note coming last and stressed.

down up gruppetto over a C ; play upscale = bcd C

up down gruppetto over a C ; play downscale = dcb C

2) Gruppetto between two different notes

Ornamental quadruplet, borrowing its tone from the first note

down up gruppetto between a B and D ; play upscale triplet+down grace note -- B abcb D

up down gruppetto between a B and D ; play downscale triplet+up grace note -- B cbab D

3) Gruppetto after a dotted note or between two identical notes :
Simlar to before, except :

between identical notes the 1st ornament is accented, takes pitch of the written notes : B Babc B // B Bcba B

after a dotted note, the 4th ornament (grace note) is accented : B cba BD // B abc BD

All is clear with the entrée ? Now howz about some sweet accidentals

?

Accident over the ~ sign : the upper note of the ornament is affected

Accident under the ~ sign : the lower note of the ornament is affected

2 accidents, over and under : both the lower and higher notes are affceted.
(this is not uncommon, when the ornaments are wished a halftone, not a full tone up/down.)

(Mostly compiled from A. Danhausers Théorie de la Musique, ed. Henry Lemoine, Paris; a book to have if you read French)

[ This Message was edited by: Zubivka on 2002-12-03 08:16 ]

claudine · Post by **claudine** » Tue Dec 03, 2002 7:19 am

alors là je suis vachement impressionnée! T'es vraiment un puits de science.

Zubivka · Post by **Zubivka** » Tue Dec 03, 2002 7:32 am

C'mon Claudine : drive a 100 odd kilometers, and you buy this book in any French Music store. Beware the Gregorian / modal chapter is just as short and questionable as the original printing back in... the 1850's ?
Nothing about just temperament, either.
But to read a score, classic or contemporary, it holds the rules. Good insights in harmony, too.

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Tue Dec 03, 2002 9:08 am

Zoob:
I don't know that your learned exposition applies to Irish Trad. Of course I don't know either if that is what Selkie asked about it.

In case it was IrTrad, in case you are looking at transcriptions of Irish tunes: The ~ means "insert appropriate ornament."

That would be typically a roll, short or long, depending on the length of the note, but it can also be a bowed triplet for the fiddles, or a triplet for boxes, or a tongued tripled for whistles or that odd thing fluteplayer do in their throats.

If you want to see some examples and listen to them, check out the excellent transcriptions in the ITM Forum. Here, for instance, is a transcription of Mary Bergin playing Over the Bridge and you'll see the ~ marks. There is a link to the MP3 in the upper right-hand corner and you can listen to Mary's playing and hear the ornaments she uses.

Check out the other transcriptions on this page, too, to see other examples.

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Tue Dec 03, 2002 9:16 am

Claudine, si c'est comme ça qu'on impressionne les femmes au Luxembourg, je vais commencer à étudier ma théorie, et préparer mon voyage!

Zubivka · Post by **Zubivka** » Tue Dec 03, 2002 9:31 am

You' re perfectly right, Bloom. I did mention I summed up the classic/contemporary notation.

And the tilde you mention appears also to be used in abc notation (before the note), in the same "insert the ornament that fits" sense you remind.

However, it is somewhat disturbing to me to have and learn (or guess) what style of music you're reading before you know how to interpret the signs.

Wouldn't the "classic" signs which looks like vw or v|w (upside down) be more appropriate ? sorry I don't know the english (or italian) term for these...

[ This Message was edited by: Zubivka on 2002-12-03 10:32 ]

2nd Wind · Post by **2nd Wind** » Tue Dec 03, 2002 9:33 am

Wow...Mary plays so blazing fast she should be in the whistle olympics. If I'm expected to play like that before I'm considered "good", then I better make whistling a full time job!
Thanks for the link Bloomfield, that website is more of what I am looking for...someone to break down the music and explain what I'm actually listening to so that I can get a better understanding of what's going on....such as the rolls & slurs & stuff like that.

_________________
Would rather go whistling where there is no path...and leave a trail.

<=o) Uriah (o=>

[ This Message was edited by: 2nd Wind on 2002-12-03 10:36 ]

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Tue Dec 03, 2002 10:01 am

On 2002-12-03 10:31, Zubivka wrote:
However, it is somewhat disturbing to me to have and learn (or guess) what style of music you're reading before you know how to interpret the signs.

Sorry about that inconvenience. But actually if you are learning the ITM music you should not be looking at the music (at first) and it seems a plus that you'd be unfamiliar with signs used: Most classically trained musicians coming to ITM have a much harder time unlearning what they were taught before than actually learning the music.

Breandan Breathnac in his Ceol Rince Na hEirann (I am sure I am mispelling it) introduced a new sign, like a classical fermata (an inverted little arc with a dot underneath) to mark the "appropriate ornament". I think he chose that symbol in part because it was not used in classical music for that purpose and would not lead to erroneous assumptions about the ornament. (In the second Volume I understand he actually wrote out the ornaments, dissecting rolls into notes and grace notes, but in later volumes went back to the simple symbol.)

Wouldn't the "classic" signs which looks like vw or v|w (upside down) be more appropriate ? sorry I don't know the english (or italian) term for these...

I am not aware of classical transcription equivalents of the Irish ornaments, because of the rhythmic subtlety of ITM, and the huge variation between regional and personal styles. Rolls, for instance, are often played Daah-Blaah-Blaah (equal length eigth divided by blips), but you can also hear them played Daaah-Blah-Blah, with a longer first statement of the note. Never have I heard Da-di-da-du-da, a classical mordent or turn, done by good traditional players.

But I don't think about it much either: I try not to compare or draw on what classical background I have for playing ITM, and I am not really concerned with writing out ITM tunes that much, anyway: It's a learning to to jog the ear, and doesn't have to be precise enough to make listing dispensible. A loose hint like the ~ sign is enough, I think.

_________________
/bloomfield

[ This Message was edited by: Bloomfield on 2002-12-03 11:02 ]

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Tue Dec 03, 2002 10:07 am

On 2002-12-03 10:33, 2nd Wind wrote:
Wow...Mary plays so blazing fast she should be in the whistle olympics. If I'm expected to play like that before I'm considered "good", then I better make whistling a full time job!
Thanks for the link Bloomfield, that website is more of what I am looking for...someone to break down the music and explain what I'm actually listening to so that I can get a better understanding of what's going on....such as the rolls & slurs & stuff like that.

_________________
Would rather go whistling where there is no path...and leave a trail.

<=o) Uriah (o=>

[ This Message was edited by: 2nd Wind on 2002-12-03 10:36 ]

The transcriptions are a treasure: Peter Laban and StevieJ here on the board have put a lot of work into them, and they are amazing learning tools. Also a great chance to listen to some rare recordings of pure traditional players. Check out some of the threads on the ITM Forum that discuss style & technique.

As for Mary Bergin, she's already won the whistle olympics, so to speak. And no, you don't have to play as fast or as cleanly as she does before you are considered good. Check out the transcription of Joe Bane and Micho Russel, for slower, apparently simpler playing.

2nd Wind · Post by **2nd Wind** » Tue Dec 03, 2002 10:33 am

Thanks a bunch. I will check out the ITM forums as much as I can, however I'm already up to my eyebrows in this forum...just trying to catch up to present day knowledge that everyone has been sharing with each other in here for years. This is the most active forum I've seen on the internet - which doesn't help me catch up any. Between C&F and ITM data-banks, I should be able to learn what the heck is going with my whistle-blowing seeing how mostly everyone is a very knowlegeable musician/craftsman. I need to make a thread to address everyone because I am so excited about this wonderful instrument that has been introduced into my life and I have a million buzzing questions in my head right now and I know this forum is my "River of Knowlege". Now leave me to speak with the old one...he is wise in the ways of such things. =)

Zubivka · Post by **Zubivka** » Tue Dec 03, 2002 11:26 am

On 2002-12-03 11:01, Bloomfield wrote:
In the second Volume I understand he actually wrote out the ornaments, dissecting rolls into notes and grace notes, but in later volumes went back to the simple symbol.

Agreed in all. The ornaments should remain alluded to, not written out as grace notes. I do find the fermata quite convenient in this use.

And thanks--"mordent" was the translation I missed for... "mordant".